Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.
Great food in birmingham. And love living in mountain brook
When it comes time to buy ill call you.
I swear...i saw this girl wearing the shortest skirt ive ever seen anyone wear in public and not in a titty bar in the whole foods parking lot. at like 2pm. I cant blame her, i would wear that too if i had legs like her. wowza. That made me love mountain brook.
I look forward to that day!
Frills - thanks for the kind words, homeslice.
Thank you for your approval!
Big fan of the Max Bill chronos. ETA (valjoux 7750?) base, if I am not mistaken. Just gave a smaller handwound Max Bill Junghans to my fiancee.
To in stitches, Newcomer, Dino944, mimo, no frills and others that post long informative and interesting posts on this thread, these are the things that keep me glued to SF.
I probably would have only written a paragraph about it at max with the Forbes article!
Thinking about it, your English teachers must have loved you all, when comes to comprehension answers, essays and even creative writing; these I am average at the best of times, and would be thrilled if I get a credit or just a distinction for, and always amazed at some of my classmates that can write pages and pages.
and wow, that last sentence is horribly long and poor structured, haha.
I hope you get it if that is the next on your to do list.
Great piece, Good Luck!!!
Thanks Wurger, that is very kind of you. I also wanted to mention, I have really been enjoying your contributions to the thread lately. You have some really outstanding looking watches. A very coherent collection of classics.
It is nice to post in an environment where people do not say TLDR to anything that is more than a paragraph .
Cheers, mate, did anyone else tell you that they read your posts due to your display picture!
You know, this avatar has been quite a big hit .
And back to Stitchy
Let me start off with just a little touch on the perspective that I am coming from. I love watches, I love the world of watches, and, obviously, I love talking about watches. At the very end of your thread, you said “Is the watch world perfect? No. […] But it keeps me happy.” I could not agree more with that statement. I am a bit of a compulsive hobbiest, as I like to call it, and this hobby is one of the few things that keeps me grounded, and what brings me back to this thread every day.
But I realize that the imperfections in the watch industry are a direct result of us, the consumers. And the only way that we can change whatever bothers us about the industry is changing our own behavior.
I am still thinking through my response, ended up doing more bar prep than I anticipated (“go me!”), but I wanted to post this little blurb from Marcus Hanke, the Zenith moderator on TPP. It really touches on a lot of great points in my opinion.
I want to hit more on what you said, because I think you really made some great points in your last post. I am in agreement with a lot of what you said. Of course, I really appreciate your counter-points.
Without further adieu:
* * * The following is not my writing * * *
With the exception of the so-called “crisis” in 2007/08, that was rather a mere economical hiccup than a real crisis, the watch industry has been through a decade of constant growth, that is marked by - who wonders - an equally steep price increase.
Of course I am fully aware that a true connoisseur, or a Purist, has a perception of “value” that is independent from an artificially created definition in Mammon’s realm, vulgo price. But it is so much easier to appreciate this “value” when you are not living under a bridge, having sold your house for a luxury watch. I mean, is there any celestial rule dictating that an industrially produced watch, with a movement bare of any hand-applied finish, and a standard complication, like a chronograph or a second timezone, has to cost an average white-collar-worker’s net income of six or seven months? In stainless steel, or course. I think not, and there is absolutely no reasonable explanation for such a price level, other than that the prices demanded are paid. And, I fear having to admit, this is a rather convincing argument.
Apparently, the number of “connoisseurs” has globally increased so much that its demand for watches supports the ever-growing production output of the luxury watch industry. And you do not have to read all works by Adam Smith to understand that this demand is driving up the prices.
However, there is also no basic law forcing us to buy all those products. A “connoisseur” is somebody “connaissant”, someone who “knows”. Which includes knowing that high value and quality are not necessarily bound to the respectively newest product of a certain manufacturer; or to the products of a certain manufacturer at all. Quality and value can be found in all places, the game is dodging the constraining influences of the masses and finding the not so apparent gems. A true connoisseur will never let a marketing department define his impression of “value” and “quality”.
There is a world beyond Chateau Lafitte, beyond those Bordeaux proud of their 1855 classifications. Many, many Crus Bourgeois are absolutely excellent, very near, if not on par with the top wines. And if you want to find a magnificent value at even lower market prices, try the wonderful wines of the Pays d’Oc, or of South Africa, Southern America, Australia, New Zealand ...
Fortunately for us, a similar rescue is available in the world of watches: I was deeply impressed by the high level of quality and unique design offered by brands like Certina, Tissot, Rado, Citizen, Seiko, and so on. When you see an automatic steel chronograph in an excellent steel case, with a flawlessly finished, shining brown metal dial, and a reliable, yet mass-produced ETA movement, that is to be released this autumn at a price for about 1,000 Swiss francs, then you will accept the assertions of some “big” brands, that their watches are so expensive because of the high prices demanded by their case/dial/hands/crystal suppliers for this quality, with a huge grain of salt.
So what is under the line of my impressions from this year’s Basel fair? We as enthusiasts, connoisseurs or PuristS have to cease being mere puppets of the “big” brands’ marketing departments, trying to explain why their products have to be so expensive. Let’s make our own evaluations of quality and value, and let us draw our own conclusions. Finally, we should not hesitate to turn our backs on products and manufacturers that in our opinion have lost the adequateness of price and “value” out of their eyes. I am convinced, that sooner or later they will crawl back, begging for our attention.
Until then, I will enjoy good watches and great wines with less prestigious names printed on them, but with the awareness of having something good.
Stitchy, no need to apologize for the length of your post. I very much enjoyed its honesty, and I can identify with how early you became interested in watch and how you initially got information about watches. I was interested in watches and could identify a Submariner or GMT Master, Day-Date, etc by the age of 10. I used to cut out ads from magazines, and tape them to my walls ...there were ads from Rolex, AP, Patek, Piaget, Concord, Porsche Design, Corum, Movado, and just about any good watch company that would put a 1 page color ad in the NY Times magazine. I also called for catalogs, stopped in at ADs and got pamphlets and anything else I could get my hands on for information about watches. The internet and wrist watch annuals have made getting information so much easier. However, I still have most of my old reference materials and even several of the old watch ads from the 1980s, and when things are quiet I enjoy looking at them.
I eventually started buying International Wristwatch, which I think just became International Watch. It was one of the first dedicated watch magazines I was able to locate on a regular basis in the states back in the 1990s. However, they seemed too sweet on every company. There were no real comparisons, and criticism or critiquing of a watch was nearly unheard of. Watch Time took things further and seemed to give more realistic reviews and did comparisons of various models from competing brands. I think being an a fair and honest journalist or publication, is quite difficult. To bland and kind to a brand or watches, and everyone thinks you are sucking up to your advertisers, too critical and mean, and you may lose advertising revenue or some companies might not grant you interviews or access to products. One of my friends used to moderate for a brand on a specific website. When he and I were exchange emails about a particular watch, if I had issues with it, or I didn't like it, he would ask me to post my criticism on the forum. He was always concerned, because he noticed if he became too critical, he might not get an invite to their next product unveiling, or they might complain to his editor etc. While I could post my dislikes, without any fear of retribution.
When I see an article about watches in publications that do not focus on watches, with watch articles containing a lot of Fluff, I don't find it offensive. I find it a good barometer of what an average non-watch collector thinks of various watches. I understand their depth of knowledge is probably limited, as much of what they learned is whatever they found in wikipedia.
In the end watches are luxury goods, and as such there is an entrance fee and maintenance. When we buy these items, its our own choice. They aren't a necessity, nor does anyone put a gun to our heads forcing us to purchase them. I think just as in any industry, there are some brands that produce great products but which can still be considered overpriced. There are items that are not at the highest technical or finishing levels, yet we seem them as good solid work and a great value. Then there is everything in between. I believe that at the end of the day most companies try to provide their clients with a good, honest, product. Sure we can disagree on what companies have done that is right or wrong, however most want repeat business and if a company does not provide clients with products that they can see value in, they won't survive for very long in today's world.
Just my 2 cents, on an imperfect world, with imperfect manufacturers, and imperfect consumers.
You don't know the power of the dark side. You are beaten. It is useless to resist. Don't let yourself be destroyed as obi wan did. Sorry....I'm not a Star Wars geek, but thought that language is so fitting.
Yes, I guess my previous statement was the most enabling statement I've issued to you...guilty as charged. However, it really is a rather compelling and interesting watch. As stated previously, I've seen a few Red Sub's in person, but never a DR SD...those I've only seen in photos. If when you dare to try it on it feels right and puts a smile on your face...be sure that as you leave the store its still on your wrist.
Wurger, welcome, its always great to have another voice here, and I've enjoyed seeing your rather diverse collection. I think you are far too kind with what you have said about our posts. As for my English teachers... I dreaded their assignments and hated the work involved in writing. However, if its a topic I enjoy, or something I feel strongly about (say a client's situation), it no longer feels like work. Something inspires me to speak my mind and do my best to share my POV or to make my case for or against something. Being here on SF has saved the incredibly patient and wonderful Mrs. Dino from having to listen for a 90th time, that watch X would be my preferred choice over watch Y, due to nuances that only SFer's would probably appreciate. So it could be an indirect marriage counselor of sorts.
Frills, I usually get to the city a few times a year. I was just there a few weeks ago, but may get down there again in the fall. I would definitely, be up for meeting up or grabbing lunch to chat SF & watch stuff. I'll PM you when I know for sure if I'll be coming to the city in the fall. Also, if before the fall you find yourself in Boston or Providence on business send me a PM, and I'd be glad to meet up here too.
Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
My thoughts echoes Dino944's, even though In Stitches provides his POV on prices of luxury watches and their services, we all made the conscious decision (hopefully) to suck up all the premium to have those watches, and these prices cannot by simply justified by economics and quality of the goods and services, more about appeal and status. While we may want to turn our backs on products and manufactures due to their inadequacies and lower their prices to match the quality of the product, (at least that is how I read the post), it's always been a problem just like the real estate market: People always complain about the prices of the housing before they make the purchase, but once they made the purchase, they don't want the market to drop and instead, want it to keep rising, until they want to buy another investment property, so the circle continues. My first multi quote, got to say, it's a tougher job than the actual reply...
Omega Speedmaster Professional 3570.50.00
My friend and I actually bought 2 Speedies together, at the time, he was getting his first upmarket watch, and it remained his only watch till this day. For me, this was going to be my first and only Chronograph to this day, I already have a bunch of dress and tool watches from Longines, Omega and Rolex before that purchase.
From the onset, my friend wasn't going to buy a few watches to collect and rotate, so it was going to be the watch for him, so we spent many nights discussing which one he should get. At his price range of less than $5000, we decided on Omega the brand first, one the most well known brands at that price; I tried to talk him into getting a Seamaster, since I know he isn't a fan of Constellation, but after doing his own research, he wanted to get the Speedmaster and not to wear a watch that is strongly linked to a fictional character. At the time, I was against that because I think having a manual watch is too much of annoyance for the only watch he is going to have, and if he is getting a Speedie, there is only one that one should get, it's the hesalite one, but it's not scratch resistant like sapphire. In the end, I think the allure of the Moon watch, and overwhelming opinion from the different watch forums for that watch, he decided on the Speedmaster Professional, and wind it daily and kept the crystal from too many scratches, he loves the watch.
For me, I just wanted another watch, and a chronograph is missing in my collection. At the start, I was really leaning towards the Daytona, since my mentality is that, if I am only getting one, should get the best one I can afford, so no buyer's remorse and wishing to upgrade to a better one down the track, and not wearing the first purchase after that, leading to a waste of the first purchase. After reading the various information about the Speedie my friend linked me, and there are heaps online! I started to waiver and eventually chose the same watch as he did. There are various reason, but to be honest, the bottom line came to the massive price difference, one can buy 3 to 4 speedies for only 1 Daytona, and the fact the Speedie came out tops in NASA's test is a testament to its quality been no lesser and even better than Rolex, and it even edges Daytona in terms of fame and prestige due to it being the Moon watch. So I can't justify the price difference in the end, but if you have to ask, is there a tinker on the back of my mind everytime i see a Daytona, haha, yes, there is.
To this day, I have never used the timer function because I need to, mainly just to show off the timer hand can bounce back to the 12 O'clock, and it doesn't get much wrist time due to it not having a date, which is quite a hindrance since I do a lot of contracts in my line of work, always signing and dating. But I have the same watch that astronauts wear, and the only watch that is NASA EVA qualified.
Separate names with a comma.