The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

[in stitches]



When it comes time to buy ill call you.

I look forward to that day!

Frills - thanks for the kind words, homeslice.

 

[wurger]



wurger - i like your collection.

Thank you for your approval!

 

[kungapa]



Gentlemen, I'll be 28 in September and I've decided to invest in two 'good' watches. My budget is around £1K each. First choice is the Max Bill Chrono Second choice I'm not too sure about. Something quite dressy, white face, in metal/silver; anything like the Cartier Tank would be great. Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

Big fan of the Max Bill chronos. ETA (valjoux 7750?) base, if I am not mistaken. Just gave a smaller handwound Max Bill Junghans to my fiancee.

 

[wurger]

To in stitches, Newcomer, Dino944, mimo, no frills and others that post long informative and interesting posts on this thread, these are the things that keep me glued to SF.

I probably would have only written a paragraph about it at max with the Forbes article!

Thinking about it, your English teachers must have loved you all, when comes to comprehension answers, essays and even creative writing; these I am average at the best of times, and would be thrilled if I get a credit or just a distinction for, and always amazed at some of my classmates that can write pages and pages.

and wow, that last sentence is horribly long and poor structured, haha.

 

[dddrees]

I almost missed responding to this. This may well be the most overtly enabling statement you've issued for one of my prospective purchases, current collection (and speed at which I amassed them) aside. That double red SD really got to you, huh!

It may well no longer be available but just to tempt myself further and test my willpower, I'll ask my dealer again if I can take a look at it. I am afraid to put it on my wrist!

I hope you get it if that is the next on your to do list.


Great piece, Good Luck!!!

 

[Newcomer]



...

Thanks Wurger, that is very kind of you. I also wanted to mention, I have really been enjoying your contributions to the thread lately. You have some really outstanding looking watches. A very coherent collection of classics.

It is nice to post in an environment where people do not say TLDR to anything that is more than a paragraph .

 

[wurger]

Cheers, mate, did anyone else tell you that they read your posts due to your display picture!

 

[Newcomer]



Cheers, mate, did anyone else tell you that they read your posts due to your display picture!

You know, this avatar has been quite a big hit .

And back to Stitchy

Let me start off with just a little touch on the perspective that I am coming from. I love watches, I love the world of watches, and, obviously, I love talking about watches. At the very end of your thread, you said “Is the watch world perfect? No. […] But it keeps me happy.” I could not agree more with that statement. I am a bit of a compulsive hobbiest, as I like to call it, and this hobby is one of the few things that keeps me grounded, and what brings me back to this thread every day.

But I realize that the imperfections in the watch industry are a direct result of us, the consumers. And the only way that we can change whatever bothers us about the industry is changing our own behavior.

I am still thinking through my response, ended up doing more bar prep than I anticipated (“go me!”), but I wanted to post this little blurb from Marcus Hanke, the Zenith moderator on TPP. It really touches on a lot of great points in my opinion.

I want to hit more on what you said, because I think you really made some great points in your last post. I am in agreement with a lot of what you said. Of course, I really appreciate your counter-points.

Without further adieu:

* * * The following is not my writing * * *​

With the exception of the so-called “crisis” in 2007/08, that was rather a mere economical hiccup than a real crisis, the watch industry has been through a decade of constant growth, that is marked by - who wonders - an equally steep price increase.

Of course I am fully aware that a true connoisseur, or a Purist, has a perception of “value” that is independent from an artificially created definition in Mammon’s realm, vulgo price. But it is so much easier to appreciate this “value” when you are not living under a bridge, having sold your house for a luxury watch. I mean, is there any celestial rule dictating that an industrially produced watch, with a movement bare of any hand-applied finish, and a standard complication, like a chronograph or a second timezone, has to cost an average white-collar-worker’s net income of six or seven months? In stainless steel, or course. I think not, and there is absolutely no reasonable explanation for such a price level, other than that the prices demanded are paid. And, I fear having to admit, this is a rather convincing argument.

Apparently, the number of “connoisseurs” has globally increased so much that its demand for watches supports the ever-growing production output of the luxury watch industry. And you do not have to read all works by Adam Smith to understand that this demand is driving up the prices.

However, there is also no basic law forcing us to buy all those products. A “connoisseur” is somebody “connaissant”, someone who “knows”. Which includes knowing that high value and quality are not necessarily bound to the respectively newest product of a certain manufacturer; or to the products of a certain manufacturer at all. Quality and value can be found in all places, the game is dodging the constraining influences of the masses and finding the not so apparent gems. A true connoisseur will never let a marketing department define his impression of “value” and “quality”.

There is a world beyond Chateau Lafitte, beyond those Bordeaux proud of their 1855 classifications. Many, many Crus Bourgeois are absolutely excellent, very near, if not on par with the top wines. And if you want to find a magnificent value at even lower market prices, try the wonderful wines of the Pays d’Oc, or of South Africa, Southern America, Australia, New Zealand ...

Fortunately for us, a similar rescue is available in the world of watches: I was deeply impressed by the high level of quality and unique design offered by brands like Certina, Tissot, Rado, Citizen, Seiko, and so on. When you see an automatic steel chronograph in an excellent steel case, with a flawlessly finished, shining brown metal dial, and a reliable, yet mass-produced ETA movement, that is to be released this autumn at a price for about 1,000 Swiss francs, then you will accept the assertions of some “big” brands, that their watches are so expensive because of the high prices demanded by their case/dial/hands/crystal suppliers for this quality, with a huge grain of salt.

So what is under the line of my impressions from this year’s Basel fair? We as enthusiasts, connoisseurs or PuristS have to cease being mere puppets of the “big” brands’ marketing departments, trying to explain why their products have to be so expensive. Let’s make our own evaluations of quality and value, and let us draw our own conclusions. Finally, we should not hesitate to turn our backs on products and manufacturers that in our opinion have lost the adequateness of price and “value” out of their eyes. I am convinced, that sooner or later they will crawl back, begging for our attention.

Until then, I will enjoy good watches and great wines with less prestigious names printed on them, but with the awareness of having something good.

 

[Dino944]

classic dino. dropping knowledge like its hot. suffice to say i agree 100% and the post is so thorough i dont think i have anything to add besides praise.

i have been following watches and reading and learning about them since i was about 13. i think over that time the amount of knowledge or information that i have gleaned from articles like that in the forbes piece is next to nil. im not sure how i missed them or how they did not reach me, but im glad they did, as i shudder at the thought of what impressions they may have made on me.

the majority of my early learning came from billboards and simple one page glossy ads with pictures and small blurbs/mottos in magazines. from there i started to order collection books from any manufacture i could the phone number to. i probably have close to a hundred of them and i read them all cover to cover. they are not just catalogues like you get from j crew or BB, they are mostly hard cover books, many of witch are well over 100 pages. they send them out "for free" but we know the cost of printing and making these lavish books is built into the price of the watches and we pay for it in the end, but from a simple educational standpoint, i think its more than worth the cost.

obviously any brand will never speak ill of itself, but i found the books to be refreshingly free of any "journalism." they were filled with historical information about the founding of the brands, their ownership, their accomplishments and awards, and beautiful pictures of all current models as well pics of some of their more famous historical pieces. they were straightforward, even if romanticized. here is who we are and where we are, this is what we make, this is why we make it. i found that companies like omega, or chronoswiss or rolex (interesting pairing, i know, thats just what popped into my brain) or any brand whose bread and butter watches were under 5 figures, didnt pretend to be something they were not. if was simply information with a slightly pornographic presentation in order to draw you in, and man did it work.

my next step was watch time magazine. i cant speak for what they write now as i have not been a subscriber for a while, (though i wish i was, i just found that i stopped reading it, probably because of SF) but for the two years i had it, i read each issue almost religiously, and i loved it. i found that their articles were very honest, and often critical of watches where they felt something was off. i think most of the watches that they tested scored in the mid 80s out of 100 points, with very very few watches cracking 95. i never saw them give out a 100, and that actually bothered me as i felt that sometimes they would nitpick just to shave off a few points. classic example would be a legibility neg for difficult night time readability if there was no lume. c'mon, most dressy watches should not have lume imo.

anyhow, i learned a ton from them, and they even put out many special editions where they featured articles new and old all on one brand, and in tandem with that brand. i felt that the brands were happy to be represented in watchtime, even though some of their models did not get glowing reviews.

now, did they have an overall positive stand point? sure they did, but i felt that was obvious and that they were honest. no one wants to read an article that totally bashed a watch. so they wrote on pieces that were overall good pieces. while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, every brand makes models that most people think are dogs for one reason or another, and i was happy that they didnt waste time writing about those models. and on the other end, i think some times people like us in here are overly critical of certain things and could use on occasion to step back and realize that we are often overly picky and sometimes despite out negs on a model, it may be overall quite nice.

certainly there are many articles and pieces that are guilty of the crimes mr foster has accused them of, thankfully i do not seem to come across them, but i dont think thats a shill from manufacturers and i dont think they are in bed together. i think most people dont really know a whole lot about watches and for one reason or another their editor wants them to write a fluff piece, so they do it. sure it sucks, but no one can control the entirely of the media, it is what it is to a degree, and i find its best to just stay away from it to keep my blood pressure at a healthy level.

are manufactures maximizing their profits and taking advantage of the public....? maybe, maybe not. they are all business in the business of making money, and they have the right to do so. and yes, a lot of watches are over priced imo, but that never bothered me. these are multi million and sometimes multi billion dollar companies ant they are not run by fools. i am sure there is a great deal of research behind the pricing. i am sure they are thinking of the future. will they see they have shot themselves in the foot? i guess we will find out in 10 to 20 years.

not to mention, we the public are always wanting more and better. when a company puts 5 years of R&D into a new movement or design to bring us cool new stuff, are they supposed to eat that cost as a public service? i dont think so. when they are expected to put on wonderful shows at various watch expos and showcase new stuff every year, are they supposed to eat that too? when i call up and ask for a free book should they eat that? there is a tremendous amount that goes into the making of these watches, even the ones we may hate, and that cost needs to be covered, just like in any business. is there some padding going on, yes i am sure there is, but its a luxury market and we all know that markups in the luxury field are not small. when RL makes a bed frame for 25k its no different. or a TF suit for 6k. thats just the name of the game.

as to "honest brands." i dont think that brands are dishonest for the most part. i dont think you can expect a sam hober experience from any brand that makes the amount of watches they do. can you email mr stern 50 times with questions about a stock calatrava? these are not mom and pop shops. they are servicing hundreds of millions of people across the globe, not a couple hundred connoisseurs. not mention, while a 150 tie is obscene for many people, its still 150 bucks, not 50k or 600k. its a different animal entirely.

nor do i think you can compare rolex or patek or AL or JLC or breitling or omega or any brand like that to a nomos or a FC. those are little doods, doing there thing, trying to sell their watches. and i have no hate towards them. i love many of their models, but i guarantee it to ya that they would love to charge more. but they cant and they know they cant. they are just different. and for the most part, a nomos or FC doesnt compare to brands with similar models that cost more. you can usually tell the difference in finishing and materials. sure some of their models are really awesome and really can compete and offer a sick value, but most of their pieces, not so much. and thats fine, they are serving different people, they have different costs and different business models.

repairs. well, thats a tough one. i think its case by case, but first off, lets start asking all customers to be honest. how many people stupidly swim in a watch and forget to close crown. or drop their watch by accident or anything like that, and they stroll into a shop and say, "my watch stopped working." i can tell you, a lot of people. thats how many. i mean, we are wearing thousands of dollars on or wrists. or tens of thousands. treat them like it. accidents happen, but whose fault is that? does it suck that its 10k to fix your watch that you dropped. yup. it sucks balls. but there is no such thing as a warranty against dropping something. thats what insurance is for.

are repair costs from manufacturers nusto, probably, but how many true blue malfunctions do you know of? like a watch that just stopped working for no good reason at all. its rare. do watches need adjustments sometimes? sure. and within the first few years, if they stop keeping proper time, they will fix it under warranty. for free. is it time consuming? sure it is. but think of the scope of what they do and how many people are are getting stuff fixed. it takes time. and that is just another part of the luxury world. and for the most part people who truly have a luxurious lifestyle, have the time to wait. they have another watch to wear. or 5. so they dont care that it takes up to 6 months to get their watch back. i know thats not me. when i strap on my JLC that has an MSRP of almost 10k, i know im not that luxurious of a guy. i saved and bought something that really does not match my standard of living. i drive a used accord V6 and i live in a house that is maybe 2k thousand square feet. i know im out of my league. but i like watches, so i try and get them, but i know that i am entering a league that i dont really play in, and i dont expect to be catered to.

past the warranty, well if your bespoke suit frays because you wear it a lot, do you expect free repair. no, of course not. watches are mechanical, they have moving parts, they wear down. thats is the nature of the product, and part of that is a cost of upkeep. no different that a car company that offers 5 years of free maintenance on a new luxury car. and after that, youre on your own buddy. its just another part of having a luxury item that is delicate. even the most rugged sporty luxury watch is still delicate on the inside and needs to be maintained.

i may come of as harsh, and sorry if i did. but i think that like many things, there is more than one POV here, and i wanted to share mine.

sorry for the way long post.

tl;rd -is the watch world perfect. no. do i think its unfair? no i dont. am i wearing rose colored glasses? maybe, but it keeps me happy. is this thread my favorite place to talk watches. 100%.

Stitchy, no need to apologize for the length of your post. I very much enjoyed its honesty, and I can identify with how early you became interested in watch and how you initially got information about watches. I was interested in watches and could identify a Submariner or GMT Master, Day-Date, etc by the age of 10. I used to cut out ads from magazines, and tape them to my walls ...there were ads from Rolex, AP, Patek, Piaget, Concord, Porsche Design, Corum, Movado, and just about any good watch company that would put a 1 page color ad in the NY Times magazine. I also called for catalogs, stopped in at ADs and got pamphlets and anything else I could get my hands on for information about watches. The internet and wrist watch annuals have made getting information so much easier. However, I still have most of my old reference materials and even several of the old watch ads from the 1980s, and when things are quiet I enjoy looking at them.

I eventually started buying International Wristwatch, which I think just became International Watch. It was one of the first dedicated watch magazines I was able to locate on a regular basis in the states back in the 1990s. However, they seemed too sweet on every company. There were no real comparisons, and criticism or critiquing of a watch was nearly unheard of. Watch Time took things further and seemed to give more realistic reviews and did comparisons of various models from competing brands. I think being an a fair and honest journalist or publication, is quite difficult. To bland and kind to a brand or watches, and everyone thinks you are sucking up to your advertisers, too critical and mean, and you may lose advertising revenue or some companies might not grant you interviews or access to products. One of my friends used to moderate for a brand on a specific website. When he and I were exchange emails about a particular watch, if I had issues with it, or I didn't like it, he would ask me to post my criticism on the forum. He was always concerned, because he noticed if he became too critical, he might not get an invite to their next product unveiling, or they might complain to his editor etc. While I could post my dislikes, without any fear of retribution.

When I see an article about watches in publications that do not focus on watches, with watch articles containing a lot of Fluff, I don't find it offensive. I find it a good barometer of what an average non-watch collector thinks of various watches. I understand their depth of knowledge is probably limited, as much of what they learned is whatever they found in wikipedia.

In the end watches are luxury goods, and as such there is an entrance fee and maintenance. When we buy these items, its our own choice. They aren't a necessity, nor does anyone put a gun to our heads forcing us to purchase them. I think just as in any industry, there are some brands that produce great products but which can still be considered overpriced. There are items that are not at the highest technical or finishing levels, yet we seem them as good solid work and a great value. Then there is everything in between. I believe that at the end of the day most companies try to provide their clients with a good, honest, product. Sure we can disagree on what companies have done that is right or wrong, however most want repeat business and if a company does not provide clients with products that they can see value in, they won't survive for very long in today's world.

Just my 2 cents, on an imperfect world, with imperfect manufacturers, and imperfect consumers.

I almost missed responding to this. This may well be the most overtly enabling statement you've issued for one of my prospective purchases, current collection (and speed at which I amassed them) aside. That double red SD really got to you, huh!

It may well no longer be available but just to tempt myself further and test my willpower, I'll ask my dealer again if I can take a look at it. I am afraid to put it on my wrist!

You don't know the power of the dark side. You are beaten. It is useless to resist. Don't let yourself be destroyed as obi wan did. Sorry....I'm not a Star Wars geek, but thought that language is so fitting.

Yes, I guess my previous statement was the most enabling statement I've issued to you...guilty as charged. However, it really is a rather compelling and interesting watch. As stated previously, I've seen a few Red Sub's in person, but never a DR SD...those I've only seen in photos. If when you dare to try it on it feels right and puts a smile on your face...be sure that as you leave the store its still on your wrist.

To in stitches, Newcomer, Dino944, mimo, no frills and others that post long informative and interesting posts on this thread, these are the things that keep me glued to SF.

I probably would have only written a paragraph about it at max with the Forbes article!

Thinking about it, your English teachers must have loved you all, when comes to comprehension answers, essays and even creative writing; these I am average at the best of times, and would be thrilled if I get a credit or just a distinction for, and always amazed at some of my classmates that can write pages and pages.

and wow, that last sentence is horribly long and poor structured, haha.

Wurger, welcome, its always great to have another voice here, and I've enjoyed seeing your rather diverse collection. I think you are far too kind with what you have said about our posts. As for my English teachers... I dreaded their assignments and hated the work involved in writing. However, if its a topic I enjoy, or something I feel strongly about (say a client's situation), it no longer feels like work. Something inspires me to speak my mind and do my best to share my POV or to make my case for or against something. Being here on SF has saved the incredibly patient and wonderful Mrs. Dino from having to listen for a 90th time, that watch X would be my preferred choice over watch Y, due to nuances that only SFer's would probably appreciate. So it could be an indirect marriage counselor of sorts.

 

[Dino944]

Dino - speaking of - are you ever in the city much? If you have time to spare for a quick lunch or meet up, would love to chat about stuff!

Frills, I usually get to the city a few times a year. I was just there a few weeks ago, but may get down there again in the fall. I would definitely, be up for meeting up or grabbing lunch to chat SF & watch stuff. I'll PM you when I know for sure if I'll be coming to the city in the fall. Also, if before the fall you find yourself in Boston or Providence on business send me a PM, and I'd be glad to meet up here too.

 

[wurger]

Cheers, mate, did anyone else tell you that they read your posts due to your display picture!

You know, this avatar has been quite a big hit . And back to Stitchy Let me start off with just a little touch on the perspective that I am coming from. I love watches, I love the world of watches, and, obviously, I love talking about watches. At the very end of your thread, you said “Is the watch world perfect? No. […] But it keeps me happy.” I could not agree more with that statement. I am a bit of a compulsive hobbiest, as I like to call it, and this hobby is one of the few things that keeps me grounded, and what brings me back to this thread every day. But I realize that the imperfections in the watch industry are a direct result of us, the consumers. And the only way that we can change whatever bothers us about the industry is changing our own behavior. I am still thinking through my response, ended up doing more bar prep than I anticipated (“go me!”), but I wanted to post this little blurb from Marcus Hanke, the Zenith moderator on TPP. It really touches on a lot of great points in my opinion. I want to hit more on what you said, because I think you really made some great points in your last post. I am in agreement with a lot of what you said. Of course, I really appreciate your counter-points.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Without further adieu:

* * * The following is not my writing * * *​

With the exception of the so-called “crisis” in 2007/08, that was rather a mere economical hiccup than a real crisis, the watch industry has been through a decade of constant growth, that is marked by - who wonders - an equally steep price increase. Of course I am fully aware that a true connoisseur, or a Purist, has a perception of “value” that is independent from an artificially created definition in Mammon’s realm, vulgo price. But it is so much easier to appreciate this “value” when you are not living under a bridge, having sold your house for a luxury watch. I mean, is there any celestial rule dictating that an industrially produced watch, with a movement bare of any hand-applied finish, and a standard complication, like a chronograph or a second timezone, has to cost an average white-collar-worker’s net income of six or seven months? In stainless steel, or course. I think not, and there is absolutely no reasonable explanation for such a price level, other than that the prices demanded are paid. And, I fear having to admit, this is a rather convincing argument. Apparently, the number of “connoisseurs” has globally increased so much that its demand for watches supports the ever-growing production output of the luxury watch industry. And you do not have to read all works by Adam Smith to understand that this demand is driving up the prices. However, there is also no basic law forcing us to buy all those products. A “connoisseur” is somebody “connaissant”, someone who “knows”. Which includes knowing that high value and quality are not necessarily bound to the respectively newest product of a certain manufacturer; or to the products of a certain manufacturer at all. Quality and value can be found in all places, the game is dodging the constraining influences of the masses and finding the not so apparent gems. A true connoisseur will never let a marketing department define his impression of “value” and “quality”. There is a world beyond Chateau Lafitte, beyond those Bordeaux proud of their 1855 classifications. Many, many Crus Bourgeois are absolutely excellent, very near, if not on par with the top wines. And if you want to find a magnificent value at even lower market prices, try the wonderful wines of the Pays d’Oc, or of South Africa, Southern America, Australia, New Zealand ... Fortunately for us, a similar rescue is available in the world of watches: I was deeply impressed by the high level of quality and unique design offered by brands like Certina, Tissot, Rado, Citizen, Seiko, and so on. When you see an automatic steel chronograph in an excellent steel case, with a flawlessly finished, shining brown metal dial, and a reliable, yet mass-produced ETA movement, that is to be released this autumn at a price for about 1,000 Swiss francs, then you will accept the assertions of some “big” brands, that their watches are so expensive because of the high prices demanded by their case/dial/hands/crystal suppliers for this quality, with a huge grain of salt. So what is under the line of my impressions from this year’s Basel fair? We as enthusiasts, connoisseurs or PuristS have to cease being mere puppets of the “big” brands’ marketing departments, trying to explain why their products have to be so expensive. Let’s make our own evaluations of quality and value, and let us draw our own conclusions. Finally, we should not hesitate to turn our backs on products and manufacturers that in our opinion have lost the adequateness of price and “value” out of their eyes. I am convinced, that sooner or later they will crawl back, begging for our attention. Until then, I will enjoy good watches and great wines with less prestigious names printed on them, but with the awareness of having something good.

i have been following watches and reading and learning about them since i was about 13. i think over that time the amount of knowledge or information that i have gleaned from articles like that in the forbes piece is next to nil. im not sure how i missed them or how they did not reach me, but im glad they did, as i shudder at the thought of what impressions they may have made on me. the majority of my early learning came from billboards and simple one page glossy ads with pictures and small blurbs/mottos in magazines. from there i started to order collection books from any manufacture i could the phone number to. i probably have close to a hundred of them and i read them all cover to cover. they are not just catalogues like you get from j crew or BB, they are mostly hard cover books, many of witch are well over 100 pages. they send them out "for free" but we know the cost of printing and making these lavish books is built into the price of the watches and we pay for it in the end, but from a simple educational standpoint, i think its more than worth the cost.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

obviously any brand will never speak ill of itself, but i found the books to be refreshingly free of any "journalism." they were filled with historical information about the founding of the brands, their ownership, their accomplishments and awards, and beautiful pictures of all current models as well pics of some of their more famous historical pieces. they were straightforward, even if romanticized. here is who we are and where we are, this is what we make, this is why we make it. i found that companies like omega, or chronoswiss or rolex (interesting pairing, i know, thats just what popped into my brain) or any brand whose bread and butter watches were under 5 figures, didnt pretend to be something they were not. if was simply information with a slightly pornographic presentation in order to draw you in, and man did it work. my next step was watch time magazine. i cant speak for what they write now as i have not been a subscriber for a while, (though i wish i was, i just found that i stopped reading it, probably because of SF) but for the two years i had it, i read each issue almost religiously, and i loved it. i found that their articles were very honest, and often critical of watches where they felt something was off. i think most of the watches that they tested scored in the mid 80s out of 100 points, with very very few watches cracking 95. i never saw them give out a 100, and that actually bothered me as i felt that sometimes they would nitpick just to shave off a few points. classic example would be a legibility neg for difficult night time readability if there was no lume. c'mon, most dressy watches should not have lume imo. anyhow, i learned a ton from them, and they even put out many special editions where they featured articles new and old all on one brand, and in tandem with that brand. i felt that the brands were happy to be represented in watchtime, even though some of their models did not get glowing reviews. now, did they have an overall positive stand point? sure they did, but i felt that was obvious and that they were honest. no one wants to read an article that totally bashed a watch. so they wrote on pieces that were overall good pieces. while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, every brand makes models that most people think are dogs for one reason or another, and i was happy that they didnt waste time writing about those models. and on the other end, i think some times people like us in here are overly critical of certain things and could use on occasion to step back and realize that we are often overly picky and sometimes despite out negs on a model, it may be overall quite nice. certainly there are many articles and pieces that are guilty of the crimes mr foster has accused them of, thankfully i do not seem to come across them, but i dont think thats a shill from manufacturers and i dont think they are in bed together. i think most people dont really know a whole lot about watches and for one reason or another their editor wants them to write a fluff piece, so they do it. sure it sucks, but no one can control the entirely of the media, it is what it is to a degree, and i find its best to just stay away from it to keep my blood pressure at a healthy level. are manufactures maximizing their profits and taking advantage of the public....? maybe, maybe not. they are all business in the business of making money, and they have the right to do so. and yes, a lot of watches are over priced imo, but that never bothered me. these are multi million and sometimes multi billion dollar companies ant they are not run by fools. i am sure there is a great deal of research behind the pricing. i am sure they are thinking of the future. will they see they have shot themselves in the foot? i guess we will find out in 10 to 20 years. not to mention, we the public are always wanting more and better. when a company puts 5 years of Rrd -is the watch world perfect. no. do i think its unfair? no i dont. am i wearing rose colored glasses? maybe, but it keeps me happy. is this thread my favorite place to talk watches. 100%.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Stitchy, no need to apologize for the length of your post. I very much enjoyed its honesty, and I can identify with how early you became interested in watch and how you initially got information about watches. I was interested in watches and could identify a Submariner or GMT Master, Day-Date, etc by the age of 10. I used to cut out ads from magazines, and tape them to my walls ...there were ads from Rolex, AP, Patek, Piaget, Concord, Porsche Design, Corum, Movado, and just about any good watch company that would put a 1 page color ad in the NY Times magazine. I also called for catalogs, stopped in at ADs and got pamphlets and anything else I could get my hands on for information about watches. The internet and wrist watch annuals have made getting information so much easier. However, I still have most of my old reference materials and even several of the old watch ads from the 1980s, and when things are quiet I enjoy looking at them. I eventually started buying International Wristwatch, which I think just became International Watch. It was one of the first dedicated watch magazines I was able to locate on a regular basis in the states back in the 1990s. However, they seemed too sweet on every company. There were no real comparisons, and criticism or critiquing of a watch was nearly unheard of. Watch Time took things further and seemed to give more realistic reviews and did comparisons of various models from competing brands. I think being an a fair and honest journalist or publication, is quite difficult. To bland and kind to a brand or watches, and everyone thinks you are sucking up to your advertisers, too critical and mean, and you may lose advertising revenue or some companies might not grant you interviews or access to products. One of my friends used to moderate for a brand on a specific website. When he and I were exchange emails about a particular watch, if I had issues with it, or I didn't like it, he would ask me to post my criticism on the forum. He was always concerned, because he noticed if he became too critical, he might not get an invite to their next product unveiling, or they might complain to his editor etc. While I could post my dislikes, without any fear of retribution. When I see an article about watches in publications that do not focus on watches, with watch articles containing a lot of Fluff, I don't find it offensive. I find it a good barometer of what an average non-watch collector thinks of various watches. I understand their depth of knowledge is probably limited, as much of what they learned is whatever they found in wikipedia.

In the end watches are luxury goods, and as such there is an entrance fee and maintenance. When we buy these items, its our own choice. They aren't a necessity, nor does anyone put a gun to our heads forcing us to purchase them. I think just as in any industry, there are some brands that produce great products but which can still be considered overpriced. There are items that are not at the highest technical or finishing levels, yet we seem them as good solid work and a great value. Then there is everything in between. I believe that at the end of the day most companies try to provide their clients with a good, honest, product. Sure we can disagree on what companies have done that is right or wrong, however most want repeat business and if a company does not provide clients with products that they can see value in, they won't survive for very long in today's world.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

My thoughts echoes Dino944's, even though In Stitches provides his POV on prices of luxury watches and their services, we all made the conscious decision (hopefully) to suck up all the premium to have those watches, and these prices cannot by simply justified by economics and quality of the goods and services, more about appeal and status. While we may want to turn our backs on products and manufactures due to their inadequacies and lower their prices to match the quality of the product, (at least that is how I read the post), it's always been a problem just like the real estate market: People always complain about the prices of the housing before they make the purchase, but once they made the purchase, they don't want the market to drop and instead, want it to keep rising, until they want to buy another investment property, so the circle continues. My first multi quote, got to say, it's a tougher job than the actual reply...

 

[wurger]

Omega Speedmaster Professional 3570.50.00

My friend and I actually bought 2 Speedies together, at the time, he was getting his first upmarket watch, and it remained his only watch till this day. For me, this was going to be my first and only Chronograph to this day, I already have a bunch of dress and tool watches from Longines, Omega and Rolex before that purchase.

From the onset, my friend wasn't going to buy a few watches to collect and rotate, so it was going to be the watch for him, so we spent many nights discussing which one he should get. At his price range of less than $5000, we decided on Omega the brand first, one the most well known brands at that price; I tried to talk him into getting a Seamaster, since I know he isn't a fan of Constellation, but after doing his own research, he wanted to get the Speedmaster and not to wear a watch that is strongly linked to a fictional character. At the time, I was against that because I think having a manual watch is too much of annoyance for the only watch he is going to have, and if he is getting a Speedie, there is only one that one should get, it's the hesalite one, but it's not scratch resistant like sapphire. In the end, I think the allure of the Moon watch, and overwhelming opinion from the different watch forums for that watch, he decided on the Speedmaster Professional, and wind it daily and kept the crystal from too many scratches, he loves the watch.

For me, I just wanted another watch, and a chronograph is missing in my collection. At the start, I was really leaning towards the Daytona, since my mentality is that, if I am only getting one, should get the best one I can afford, so no buyer's remorse and wishing to upgrade to a better one down the track, and not wearing the first purchase after that, leading to a waste of the first purchase. After reading the various information about the Speedie my friend linked me, and there are heaps online! I started to waiver and eventually chose the same watch as he did. There are various reason, but to be honest, the bottom line came to the massive price difference, one can buy 3 to 4 speedies for only 1 Daytona, and the fact the Speedie came out tops in NASA's test is a testament to its quality been no lesser and even better than Rolex, and it even edges Daytona in terms of fame and prestige due to it being the Moon watch. So I can't justify the price difference in the end, but if you have to ask, is there a tinker on the back of my mind everytime i see a Daytona, haha, yes, there is.

To this day, I have never used the timer function because I need to, mainly just to show off the timer hand can bounce back to the 12 O'clock, and it doesn't get much wrist time due to it not having a date, which is quite a hindrance since I do a lot of contracts in my line of work, always signing and dating. But I have the same watch that astronauts wear, and the only watch that is NASA EVA qualified.

 

[Dino944]

Omega Speedmaster Professional 3570.50.00

My friend and I actually bought 2 Speedies together, at the time, he was getting his first upmarket watch, and it remained his only watch till this day. For me, this was going to be my first and only Chronograph to this day, I already have a bunch of dress and tool watches from Longines, Omega and Rolex before that purchase.

From the onset, my friend wasn't going to buy a few watches to collect and rotate, so it was going to be the watch for him, so we spent many nights discussing which one he should get. At his price range of less than $5000, we decided on Omega the brand first, one the most well known brands at that price; I tried to talk him into getting a Seamaster, since I know he isn't a fan of Constellation, but after doing his own research, he wanted to get the Speedmaster and not to wear a watch that is strongly linked to a fictional character. At the time, I was against that because I think having a manual watch is too much of annoyance for the only watch he is going to have, and if he is getting a Speedie, there is only one that one should get, it's the hesalite one, but it's not scratch resistant like sapphire. In the end, I think the allure of the Moon watch, and overwhelming opinion from the different watch forums for that watch, he decided on the Speedmaster Professional, and wind it daily and kept the crystal from too many scratches, he loves the watch.

For me, I just wanted another watch, and a chronograph is missing in my collection. At the start, I was really leaning towards the Daytona, since my mentality is that, if I am only getting one, should get the best one I can afford, so no buyer's remorse and wishing to upgrade to a better one down the track, and not wearing the first purchase after that, leading to a waste of the first purchase. After reading the various information about the Speedie my friend linked me, and there are heaps online! I started to waiver and eventually chose the same watch as he did. There are various reason, but to be honest, the bottom line came to the massive price difference, one can buy 3 to 4 speedies for only 1 Daytona, and the fact the Speedie came out tops in NASA's test is a testament to its quality been no lesser and even better than Rolex, and it even edges Daytona in terms of fame and prestige due to it being the Moon watch. So I can't justify the price difference in the end, but if you have to ask, is there a tinker on the back of my mind everytime i see a Daytona, haha, yes, there is.

To this day, I have never used the timer function because I need to, mainly just to show off the timer hand can bounce back to the 12 O'clock, and it doesn't get much wrist time due to it not having a date, which is quite a hindrance since I do a lot of contracts in my line of work, always signing and dating. But I have the same watch that astronauts wear, and the only watch that is NASA EVA qualified.

Great watch and one of the few Omegas that has always captured my heart and interests. Also, great reading about how you came to make your decision. It is truly an iconic watch, and a tremendous value. It is a quality piece that should give you many years or decades of enjoyments! At some point I might add one to my own collection.

I think its history and price are great reasons for choosing a Speedmaster. However, I would suggest that NASA's tests while relevant in the 1960s, are today little more than a historic footnote and have no bearing on the modern Speedmasters or Daytonas. While the classic manual wind Speedy Pro is very close to what went to the moon, its movement and bracelet are not the same, and avid collectors prefer the original with original movement. Furthermore, the Daytona is about as far from the Daytonas of the 1960s as a Model T Ford is from 2013 Ford Mustang. The movement in the 1960s Daytonas was a manual wind Valjoux. By 1988/89 the Daytona movement was an automatic, based on Zeniths El Primero, but highly revised, and by 2000/01 the Daytona's movement was a completely in house automatic movement with a 72 hour power reserve. In addition, the case, bracelet, dials, etc are complete different, and even as of 1988/89 the Daytonas were far more water resistant (100m) than Speedy Pros.

As for prestige and fame, its relative and depends on how its measured. Yes, the Speedy has been to the Moon, its been around for longer than the Daytona, and its a very important piece of horological history. However, the Daytona is iconic in its own right, as a watch chosen by race car drivers, the most famous being Paul Newman, Jackie Stewart, and Hurley Haywood. For nearly 20 years it was "THE" sports watch to own. In all steel it was so highly sought after that for nearly 15 years, most AD had waiting lists that were years long, and if one could buy one at list price it could easily be flipped in 24 hours or 5 years later for a profit of between 50 and 100% depending on where you lived...and that's not even considering auction results of vintage models. So I'd say they are at least equally famous and prestigious, but different.

I think the Speedy Pro is a fantastic watch, I love its history. However, if one is comparing the modern versions, the current Daytona is a bit more practical (auto with 3 day power reserve), more water resistant, and more rugged. Today there are modern Speedies that are more rugged, practical, and competitive with current Daytonas, but those lose their historic significance. I just think you have clarify that today's watches are quite different from that which was offered by in the 1960s, and hence NASA's choice might not be a reason to make a choice, other than it adds to its historical significance.

I really love both watches. In the end there is no wrong answer when it comes to choosing between them. Buyers of each will walk away with smiles on their faces and feeling like they made a fantastic choice!

 

[wurger]

Thank you Dino944, perfect reply to my spill, I think our posts cover pretty much all aspects of the argument now succinctly in 2 posts.

"Iconic" was the word i was looking for while posting at midnight, instead I had to find a few other lesser adjectives to put in its place, sighs, a whole day out with the missus must be draining on my brain...

Now, I did skim over the reasoning and justification for the Speedy and Daytona, I truly think my mind was so clouded by the marketing of Omega, even though most of them are factual, and the enthusiastic fan base for the Speedy in watch forums; I either deliberately or subconsciously pushed the valid points you provided into a dark corner of my mind and boxed it away, and I actually did read up and was fully aware of the things you wrote before I made the decision as I was doing research on the Daytona too. I reckon it must be due to the self justification I did to myself after my purchase. (the Omega marketing team must have a smirk on their face now)

Now that you kindly reminded me the positives of the Daytona, the door is now ajar for it in my collection.... must resist!!!!

 

[Hayward]

I'll offer a rebuttal to all this later, but for now we need more pics of Rolexes and food.