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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    You guys keep quoting the pic of that Lange, and now I find myself wanting it badly :fu:
     
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  2. Michigan Planner

    Michigan Planner Senior member

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    Doing some desk diving today with the SBDX001

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  3. TheTukker

    TheTukker Senior member

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    Cool story.
     
  4. Macs

    Macs Senior member

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    Thanks!
     
  5. Newcomer

    Newcomer Senior member

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    Mea culpa! I misread :slayer:

    I second most all of what you said ha!
     
  6. mimo

    mimo Senior member

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    I don't think it's entirely fair to consider the Pano "derivative" of the L1: it's a natural assumption to think of something that's cheaper-than-but-similar-to as an hommage or "derivative of", by definition. And it's usually true I suppose. But I don't believe so in this case: Lange and GO are born (reborn in Lange's case), out of the same company, only twenty years ago. There are several similarities in style in these models, but it's not as if one company went and imitated the timeless classic of another (e.g. MP's unashamedly Sub-alike Seiko, that's in a very different place in the market). As you said, the Pano has arguable superiority in some areas, of which I would cite their brilliant symmetrical "big date". Maybe GO's is the defining "big date"? GO belongs to Swatch, and is a lot cheaper. But just because Lange belongs to Richemont doesn't make it a re-badged JLC.

    Where I would agree is that Lange > GO as a general rule, and not just in price. I'd want that gold Pano (or in my case, the Senator Perpetual that I desire in steel), at at least 30-40% off. I'd probably look at a used one to get around that scary depreciation hit that Dino mentioned. But that brings me to a question for the OP: does it have to be new? I'd rather have a better watch "new to me" in mint condition, I think, even for a special occasion. And if so, it might be worth enlisting Stitchy for a special watch location service. He fixed Kai up with that stunning Lange 1 Time Zone in rose gold, after all.

    Anyway, no question the Lange 1815 Ab/Auf is the best watch there. But it's also right at the top of the budget. Maybe look for something nearly new, and set our man off on a bargain hunt? You might even be able to get something with a higher list then, like a Lange 1 Moonphase. Especially if you don't love the Up-Down so much after wearing it: it's only 36mm x 7mm so a lot less substantial than the others you listed. I bet Stitchy can get you a big sexy one for thirty grand easy!
     
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  7. DLJr

    DLJr Senior member

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    I don't disagree with any of this, I was just saying how most people tend to talk about the Pano series. I know I could handle having Dino next to me expressing his unfiltered opinion on the PML every second I had it on my wrist and it wouldn't change my opinion of the watch at all. I just don't think if you really want the Lange 1, or if you are sensitive to the opinions of other watch lovers, that the PML is right for you. That is what I was trying to get across there in less words.

    I love GO, but in steel. I think steel fits in better with there general aesthetic. So for me I'd look to other brands for gold. But I certainly agree to shopping around if you want a GO in a precious metal. I believe a LNIB would be deeply discounted and a great buy if that's what you were after.
     
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  8. Newcomer

    Newcomer Senior member

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    A couple things--I agree with your general sentiments wholeheartedly. The GO is going to take a super huge, very scary depreciation hit. I have no doubt that you could find it for $12-$15k if you wait long enough. And there is a LOT of merit in buying used in that price range. It opens a WHOLE lot of doors. And at that price point, the previous owners babied the living heck out of those watches. And I think that GO's big date is much prettier than Langes, and is a much better solution to the "big date problem," as the GO big date has no overlap. And, well, the Lange big date mechanism has a VERY noticeable big date gap. Thus the "windows" outlining the BD.

    A few things--the new aub/auf is actually 39mm, and has a completely new Caliber with stop-seconds. Very cool. I like the increase in size.

    But I wanted to say, the SBDX001, or the MM300--I would hesitate to call it overly derivative. This is my inner Seiko nerd coming out, but the MM300 is NO slouch. It is a very well finished diver, and offers probably the best bang for the buck in the price range (it used to offer a better bang for your buck... but alas, price increases). It comes from a long history of Seiko divers, and although it "borrows" from the Rolex in regards to the indices, is very much its own watch. It is also fairly pricey, around $2k - $2.5k. The movement is an unfinished GS movement, the case is one piece of metal (movement is accessed by removing the crystal--a monoblock case), and it is made for professional divers. It is a serious piece of diving and desk-diving equipment. Although it uses round lumed indices, I believe that it is based on the functional benefits rather than merely borrowing Rolex goodwill.

    Here is a nice outline of Seiko's "serious dive watch" history:

    The history of Seiko diver can be traced back to 1965 when the first dive watch the 150m 62MAS-010 was introduced. The most amazing aspect of Seiko dive history is its almost uninterrupted production run from the mid-1960s to present day. Much like the Grand Seiko series, the development of Seiko diver for its domestic market was an attempt by the company to match the Swiss in terms of quality and performance when national pride swept the country after it re-entered the world stage with the 1964 Tokyo Olympic.

    However in 1968 Seiko divers hit a wall so to speak. Following 3 successive models released in 4 short years, the next new Seiko diver was not released for another 7 years until 1975 following a letter received by Seiko from a professional SAT diver from Kure City in the Hiroshima Prefecture complaining of the many failing of his numerous Seiko divers when working in SAT dive depth. Shocked by the letter and serious about developing a dive watch capable for the professional divers, the 7 year span saw Seiko sports division engineers tested and researched to create a professional dive watch.

    In 1975, Seiko unveiled the Seiko Professional 600m 6159-022. The 7 years development period saw Seiko engineered many first and improvements. It was the first dive watch to use titanium case, first with a rubber strap with three ribbed vents. It also designed and patented the L-shaped gasket to vent helium gases much like the function of the HRV without the HRV crown.

    From inexpensive market entry divers like the current 7S series to the professional Prospex series, Seiko divers are certainly the most popular and widely used everyday diver’s watches. The many anecdotes of Seiko divers withstanding harsh beating and many years of abuse by soldiers, professionals and the average Joe makes it one of the most undervalued and underappreciated watches in the market and thus the developing status of Seiko watches today.

    Here is a fun little comparative review [pictures are dead, unfortunately]: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f304/c...001-marinemaster-vs-rolex-16610lv-296162.html
     
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  9. Newcomer

    Newcomer Senior member

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    Also, I am greatly enjoying this discussion, some great points all around.

    And welcome back Belli, I am glad you have found "solace" in your collection. That must be an excellent feeling!

    I would love to see a group shot of your watches at some point.
     
  10. Foley

    Foley Member

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    Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment and for the honest opinions. That’s what I am looking for here. I plan to take my time and enjoy the process.

    Apropos - Yes, I happen to be a urologist, hence the name. (Those in the medical profession will get the joke). The Breguet is beautiful and I really like that style hands and numbers – I will check it out!

    As many others said, I am underwhelmed by the ‘lower-priced’ Patek offerings, but the 5296 sector dial seemed the most interesting of the choices I saw from them. It will stay on the list for now, at least until I see one ‘in the flesh’.

    Regarding GO vs Lange – It’s become more clear than ever that I need to try on the Lange options in order to appreciate what I would be getting. It’s hard to ignore the price difference but for a special occasion like this, I don’t want to be left wishing I had spent some more and purchased the ‘real thing’. Also, I am drawn to the concept of getting a timepiece that is not available in SS, and the comments reinforce those sentiments. Same is true for some of the JLC models.

    Robw, Cleav, mguy001 – The VC 1921 is… intriguing, but may be out of my price range as dino indicates. Nevertheless I will try to find one to try on, and will look again at the brand.

    Regarding the rose gold choice. My wife really likes rose gold and I think the only way I can pull this off with her blessing is to get something in that material (I like it as well, of course).
    She does not really understand why I need more than one watch (!) but she does humor me (I remind her that there are worse vices), and she consistently picks rose gold watches when I drag her to the dealers.
     
  11. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    i am woefully behind on all this action.

    foley, fwiw, here is my opinion.

    id pass on that PP, dont really love it.

    im a big JLC fanboi and that is a great model and a great value, but the aesthetics dont do much for me.

    i love both the GO and the ALS. one is asymmetrical and busy and one is symmetrical and simple. just a matter of personal preference and you cant go wrong with either.

    i dont really think its worth throwing more options on the table as you clearly have spent time on this and came out with what appeals to you, and adding to it will really just be other people preferences and that should not dictate what you do imho. so, of the 4 you are looking at, its ALS or GO for me. personally id go ALS because im a whore and also i tend towards symmetry.
     
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  12. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    Hi Mimo,

    Sorry, but I disagree on this point. Yes, the Pano is a derivative and IMHO, a lesser substitute. When the Lange 1 was originally released it was considered a ground breaking design. When the Panos came out...it was more like..."Oh, a less expensive alternative to a Lange 1." GO makes a good quality watch, but it would annoy me to no end to have something that is essentially a derivative/copy of the original. If an original isn't in my budget, I will find something else original that is. If I wanted a GO, I would choose something that defines GO and doesn't stand in the shadows on another brand. Just my 2 cents!

    You are one hell of a good sport if you could handle having me sit next to you and express my unfiltered opinion about the PML while you were wearing it. Cheers my friend [​IMG]

    I do think you hit upon an important point. If someone really wants a Lange 1 (Patek, Rolex, or whatever) don't buy a substitute. Substitutes rarely scratch that itch. Usually, its a temporary fix and the heart and mind will always wander back to their true love. As much as we discuss the merits of innovation, finishing, and movements, a watch purchase is an emotional purchase and if one is spending sizable sum (be it $2,000 or $200,000) one should purchase a watch the love. I think that is particularly true if one is commemorating a special event with a watch. How can one commemorate something with what they don't truly adore and view as a substitute. I think that would detract from it. There are watches I adore in a variety of price ranges, so for me commemorating something doesn't mean it would have to be with the most expensive watch watch that I love.

    I like rose gold, particularly if you wear a lot of SS or white metal watches. It adds some variety and further differentiates some of these dress watches you are considering from watches that are sporty such as your Daytona.

    Definitely, try on Langes and GOs, and be sure you don't feel like you are leaving with a substitute. As I mentioned above, substitutes rarely scratch that itch. A friend of mine regularly buys the substitute for what he really wants, usually due to price. Then he end up still wanting the other, selling the first watch, eating some depreciation, and eventually getting the one he wants. Buy the one you want (within your budget). Its great to commemorate a nice event with a watch, but its also nice not to have buyers remorse and wish you had gone with the other piece. I can say one of the best purchases ever was my RO Jumbo. It is one watch that I have never second guessed, I didn't wonder if I should have purchased a different model, or different brand, and I've had no regrets about it. You should feel the same about your purchase regardless of the brand or amount you decide to spend. Good luck and keep us posted.
     
  13. Flake

    Flake Senior member

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    To fully appreciate the beauty of that Lange, you must view it from the caseback side. Stunning.
     
  14. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    pics now. that obvi could be a game changer.
     
  15. DLJr

    DLJr Senior member

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    GO PML:
    [​IMG]

    1815 Up Down:
    [​IMG]
     
  16. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    honestly, even though the ALS is probably finished nicer, they are both stunning. i have always been in love with the double swans neck on the GO, and i have a thing for micro-roters and branded roters, so its still a toss up for me. either one is a winner.
     
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  17. DLJr

    DLJr Senior member

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    I agree with this 100% in terms of the movement aesthetics. In this instance I find the GO more interesting, finishing aside. Though I can't really comment on the particulars of the finish as a comparison anyway except to say that I have handled the GO on several occasions and nothing has stood out as lacking. Maybe I would need a loop to notice, or maybe I'm ignorant.
     
  18. mimo

    mimo Senior member

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    I knew you would. Disagreeing with you is a foolish behaviour on my part, invariably, and yet I am occasionally compelled to roll the dice anyway to see if I've learned anything. I had always thought the "big date" concept had come from some GUB-era piece, and evolved in different directions. Anyway, thank you for my educational slap. :)

    Yes indeed. Again (I don't know why I keep sticking up for GO when Lange is so obviously better!), the finish on GO is not shabby either: every hand-engraved balance cock is unique too, so I'm told. But yes. Lange is the Beyonce of watches. Sure, it's pretty, but turn it around and look at that movement...


    While we're on the subject of German watches (which is definitely one of my favourite subjects), putting my brain in Saxony did give me a more original idea for another question:
    Tutima. No wire lugs, but some interesting case shapes - simple three hands, chronos, fliegers...and it's nice to be different, isn't it? I believe they've graduated from Lemania to in-house movements, too. I don't know how much these are, but the older Lemania ones are about $1-2k.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Newcomer

    Newcomer Senior member

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    Both have a nice movement architecture. But view them side-by-side, and you will see that Lange is the clear winner.

    Lange finishing has a very warm quality that is nigh impossible to notice in pictures. But in person, it just glows. I do not get that feeling with JLCs finishing, GO's finishing... well, most finishing.

    But look at the finishing on a VC, PP, or Lange, and you will see what I mean.

    With Lange, the german silver and the anglage really pop.
     
  20. DLJr

    DLJr Senior member

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    I find this hard to judge in stores. The lighting there tends to lead me to incorrect everyday conclusions. Outside of Frill's PP though, I haven't handled any of those high end finishing brands out in the wild so this is just a general comment from me.
     
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