The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    Nice options...however the decision would be easy for me...Speedy Pro !!!! Good luck and let us know what you decide.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  2. johanm

    johanm Senior member

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    It's hard to do an apples/apples comparison with these watches since IWC/Panerai only recently started competing in earnest for the segment that Rolex has dominated for decades - upper middle class professionals - with corresponding production volume, product range, investment in brand equity, etc. You don't really see too many 7-10 year old IWC/PAMs on the market, and the few that are there sell for easily more than the original asking price, when calculated according to original MSRP minus customary AD discount. For example, look at the prices for used IWC 5002 Big Pilots, 5001 Port, Mark XII/XVs, 3536, 3703, 3716, PAM 111/183, etc. 7-10 year old examples sell today for about 50-70% of current MSRP (depending on production volume and whether the models were discontinued), and all had original MSRP of 50-70% of current MSRP. Therefore, the AD discount at time of purchase is roughly similar to the profit margin at time of sale, at least on average, with variance depending on the desirability of the particular model (and to be fair, how much profit is anyone making off of a 10 year old Datejust, Airking, or any TT Rolex?). Also as you note, when you consider limited production models (IWC 5000/Jubilee, transitional 5002, PAM 127, etc), the profit ceiling is much higher.

    That said, I think it's a mistake to overemphasize historical results. Instead think about why modern Rolexes (<20 years old) have performed so well on the secondary market. My guess is that it's because the market is so broad, with so many people aspiring to Rolex ownership but unable to afford a new model. I believe that for reasons unrelated to the intrinsic quality of the watches, Rolex's brand equity is declining as some of these other brands are ascending - it's becoming less the classy alternative to Omega/Tag and more the dowdy and less glamorous alternative to IWC/Panerai/AP - and so the aspirational premium on the secondary market is shifting to the newer brands.

    JMHO
     
  3. Flake

    Flake Senior member

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    Same thoughts here. The Speedy Pro is the classic, between the two. And, I find it's easier to dress up the Speedy than it is a Seamaster. The Speedy looks fine with a jacket and tie, especially if you switch it to a black croc strap. The Seamaster somehow feels out of place with a suit. JMO, YMMV.
     
  4. Moloch38

    Moloch38 Senior member

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    Here's a good Rolex story from the winning driver at the Rolex Daytona 24 last week:
    http://jalopnik.com/5980884/the-funniest-story-youll-ever-hear-about-a-rolex
    The Funniest Story You’ll Ever Hear About A Rolex

    Dr. Jim Norman, One Hot Lap
    (Dr. Jim Norman, driver of the Napleton Racing #16 Porsche Cayman team that just won the GX class of the 2013 Rolex 24, has the funniest Rolex story you'll ever hear! In his own words — OHL)
    Funny story: Today I took my new Rolex to the jeweler right down the street from my house in Tampa to get a link taken out so it fits me better (for those of you who don't know, the winning drivers of the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona are presented with a new Rolex timepiece in Victory Lane).
    The jeweler re-sizes it for me and charges me $8. I say "Wow, 8 bucks, that's not very much." The manager lady says, "well, if it were a REAL Rolex we would charge you more!" I chuckle and say "it IS a real Rolex."
    She says, "Nope it is not...We know Rolex watches and this is definitely a fake."
    My retort, "well, I guess you don't know these as well as you think!"
    Hearing this, the Jeweler comes out from behind his little glass window from where he is working on a frail, blue-haired lady's broach while wearing some very dorky-looking magnifying glasses and says, "I'll bet you bought that watch in New York." He puts both hands in his back pockets and sticks out his skinny "bird" chest in an attempt to be strong and assertive. "Nope" I say, "I haven't been to NYC in some time." He quickly replies, "I'll bet you $1000 you didn't buy that from a real Rolex dealer". I say, I won't take that bet, because you are right, I didn't buy this from a Rolex dealer."
    "AH HA!" he exclaims, "it IS a fake!! Where did you get it??" "I got it in Daytona this past Sunday." "HA! I am right!" he shouts, almost loud enough to break some of the crystal elephants assembled as a group on one of the overhead glass shelves. "I know all the Rolex dealers in Daytona, and none of them are open on Sundays!" He is quite pleased with himself and turns to strut back to his window-enclosed, nick-knack cluttered cubby.
    "Maybe I didn't get it from a dealer" I state smugly. He turns and says, "well then tell me, who DID you get this FAKE Rolex from?" "Well, I stated calmly and coolly, I was presented this beautiful timepiece from the President and CEO of Rolex Watches while standing on the podium at the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona." "OH, Sure!" he says, "and I'm Santa Claus!!"
    And back into his cubby he went, oblivious to the REAL world around him. He doesn't get it... The world is passing him by and he isn't even aware that it is happening. You gotta love life and embrace life, even if it means you have to wear a fake Rolex.
     
  5. no frills

    no frills Senior member

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    That's a fantastic story, heh heh.
     
  6. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    Great story. Watch odyssey update - today I went to one of eight AL&S boutiques in the world. Yay for me! :) The boutique is surprisingly small, a real hole in the wall, but I guess that's to be expected in space-scarce Singapore. It has not officially launched yet, it's sort of in the soft launch phase. Service in the boutique was excellent, with refreshments appearing out of nowhere without any prompting. I was also given a catalogue when I left, once again without any prompting. It is a substantial piece of work, and makes other catalogues look... cheap. After the AL&S boutique I dropped into The Hour Glass to look at some Breguets and you should have seen the look on the HG salespeople when they spotted the AL&S carrier bag... :devil: Being possessed of a rather cruel streak, I put the salesman through his paces with a stream of questions about the various Lange models (most of which I knew the answers to already... heh) - he performed remarkably well, with the only hiccup being his explanation of why there was a $2,500 price difference between the WG and PG Lange 1s ("more gold" in the WG version...???!!). A welcome change from the usual clueless AD staff. Some observations.... The Lange 1s are beautiful, as always. I have now set my heart on a WG Lange 1; in partficular ref. 101.027x would be a grail for me. I got to spend nearly 20min with a loupe examining the Lange 1 movement, which was absolutely fantastic. The (new) Grand Langes are in their way possibly even more well proportioned than the Lange 1s - their slimmer profile is noticeable, and very appealing. I had a hard time deciding which I liked better, the Grand or vanilla Lange 1. The Zeitwerk is interesting, but sadly proportioned like a hockey puck. The prices were a little... surprising - the Lange 1 is SGD$45,000, which is approx USD$36,300. The discount was bad, nay, pathetic for Singapore - just 5%. AL&S have withdrawn their brand from The Hour Glass, so Sincere Watches are the only other outfit in town stocking AL&S. The salesman helpfully informed me that the discount was also "locked" at 5% at that other AD. I could have sworn Lange 1s were just $31,000 last year?? It's pretty surprising that you can get Langes cheaper in the USA than in Singapore, watch mecca that it is. Anyway, to make up for the lack of boutique/AD photos, a gratuitous watch photo: [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  7. no frills

    no frills Senior member

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    Great story here. Do you go to Singapore often?
     
  8. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    Great story. Reminds me a bit of an experience a friend of mine had dealing with Tourneau in NYC years ago.
     
  9. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    Not really, maybe once every 2 or so years.

    I lived there for a period of time, and it's changed a lot since I've left. It's a great place in some ways, a not so great place in other ways. The food culture there is fantastic, unmatched anywhere else I've been so far. The country is very well run. If you're into material/ephremal things it's a fantastic place to visit/shop/experience various other debauched things, but I don't think it's a good place to settle down or raise children unless you are in the top 0.05% income bracket.

    In other words, it's sort of becoming Hong Kong, but with worse weather!
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  10. jeff13007

    jeff13007 Senior member

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    Which Lange boutique did you go to? Just before new years i was looking at some pieces at their Ion boutique and they offered 15% right off the bat.
     
  11. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    I went to the monobrand AL&S boutique. IIRC I was told that the Ion AL&S boutique has only been open for a bit under 2 months, so by "boutique" in your post I think you might be referring to the "Atelier" AD, which is run by the Hour Glass - i.e. the AD that lost the AL&S account?

    If so, I guess we can see why now!! :nodding:

    If not, maybe I look "prosperous", or maybe they sensed "tourist" and smelt blood, or maybe I need to rethink my bargaining strategy!! :embar:
     
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  12. jeff13007

    jeff13007 Senior member

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    Wait dammit! if you are right this is bad news for me, i was saving for an 1815! Dam you hour glass!

    Edit: There was no strategy! you just walked in and asked for their "best price" and they immediately pulled out a calculator and deducted 15%
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  13. sdolina

    sdolina Senior member

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    Friday' shot on the South-German autoban, shitty winter weather.


    [​IMG]
     
  14. rnguy001

    rnguy001 Senior member

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    Extremely true. Rolex and PAMs have much higher resale and trade in values. I found this out firsthand when I was inquiring about possible trade ins. IWC and even JLC as a whole don't hold up their value nearly as well ( as I would've liked)

    It made me really appreciate Rolex a little more to be honest.


     
  15. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    Yes, there are IWCs that sell at prices beyond their original discounted prices. However, there are plenty that don't...I've seen GSTs, Ingenieurs, and F.A Jones, with ASKING prices at either their original discounted prices...or in the case of the F.A. Jones that my AD wanted to sell me at MSRP...I could now buy it for 30% less than he wanted to sell it to me for...Nice watch, but I'm glad I didn't buy it. Also, if going by internet pricing, remember those are asking prices and not actual SALE prices. Also the appreciation levels I mentioned are based on actual sales, not asking prices. In addition, I don't want to be bothered with tire kickers, people getting buyers remorse and wanting to return a watch after I sell it, so the appreciation of 20-25% even on Ex1s and Ex2s is conservative as the stores I've sold to still make a profit over my selling price.

    A good ss DJ after 7-10 years if well taken care of, still has very strong resale. IWC is a great watch, and granted I don't live in NYC, but I can tell you some used watch shops aroud me won't even consider buying anything other than Patek, Rolex, AL&S, AP, Cartier. They won't purchase IWC, GP, JLC, and tons of other great brands. Its not the end all be all, but it says something of the secondary market for those brands.

    You mention Rolex doing well in the secondary market because people buy it when they can't afford a new one...but thats true of all brands in the secondary market. Unless one is dedicated to vintage models, or you are searching for a specific model that went out of production, most people want to own a new watch rather than the same model thats 2-4 years old with someone else's name on the paperwork.

    As for the interest in AP, IWC, Panerai etc. there is far more advertising today on the part of AP, Omega, Panerai, Tag, and IWC. I don't recall seeing any printed ads for IWC or Panerai prior to the mid 1990s. AP did a little advertising in the 1980s...and in the 1980s when Tag bought Heuer they were originally selling junky quartz watches in Sharper Image catalogs and airplane "Skymall" types of catalogs. Tag has certainly put in a lot of effort to change that image, and IWC has moved toward making some of their own movements.

    I did find your final paragraph interesting, and there are a few points I agree with, some I don't. It seemed Rolex didn't do very much with their products for several years in the 90s into early 2000s. Some Rolex models don't excite me, such as the basic Datejust, nice watch but nothing unusual. But its funny that Rolex keeps models largely the same over the years with just slight evolutionary changes, and they are called boring or dowdy here on SF. Patek does virtually nothing with a Calatrava other than beef up case size and price...and well thats a classic no one can criticize because its Patek. I really adore complicated Pateks, they are simply stunning,...but the Calatrava is just grossly overpriced. Also Panerai...it became better known after Hollywood took a liking to them in the 90's. They are interesting designs, but in reality they offer 2 models with some variations. People applaud that that are finally making some of their own movments but no one criticizes them for keeping the same look for decades? Actually, people often love watches that change very little over time...the Speedy Pro, Calatrava, Cartier Tank, and many of TAGs nicest watches seem to be reissues of Heuers from the pre-TAG days. I just think its interesting that Rolex takes a beating for small evolutionary changes, and other brands get a pass.


    I do think that with Rolex's price increases have pushed some potential buyers toward Omega, Breitling, and Tag all of which have some products starting at a lower price point. A friend that worked in the industry told me that the number of people that can afford good watches and spend for them, gets smaller at certain levels, its like there is a pyramid. There is a large base at with people willing to spend up to 5K, tapering as you get to 10K then tapering again substantially at 20K and the number spending 20K + is quite small. As Rolex moved above the $5K range many would be buyers that don't want a pre-owned watch move toward less expensive alternative brands. As for Rolex being less glamourous...I've never considered Rolex, Panerai, IWC as glamorous watches. I just think of them as sports watches and any of them could be alternatives for the others depending on needs and personal taste. As for AP it starts in such a different price range that they really are not competitors or alternatives.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
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