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chocomallo

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Regular service polishing absolutely does alter a case’s profile. I speak from direct experience. The effect is amplified with softer metals like gold.

When they “re-cut” the case, they polish it similarly to how it was done at time of manufacturing. That is a far more involved process. Like I said I am not an expert on this so I don’t know the details.

But I do know that high-end makers like Patek hand-polish all new watch cases before they leave the factory—so each watch has already been polished to a different degree, yet also has a crisp-as-new profile and edges. Clearly, there is a difference versus service polishing.

In both cases, some minute amount of metal is removed. The difference is that re-cutting keeps or restores the shape of the watch.

Keep on drinking that Kool-aid. For a guy who knows the name of the tailor who stitches his suits I am surprised you take re-cutting on faith as any different than a normal polishing. To believe what you are saying means Patek has special machines for fresh watches that they refuse to use for used watches. Seems pretty suspect. Maybe you can confirm on your VIP tour.
 

chocomallo

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Regular service polishing absolutely does alter a case’s profile. I speak from direct experience. The effect is amplified with softer metals like gold.

When they “re-cut” the case, they polish it similarly to how it was done at time of manufacturing. That is a far more involved process. Like I said, I am not an expert on this so I don’t know the details.

But I do know that high-end makers like Patek hand-polish all new watch cases before they leave the factory—so each watch has already been polished to a different degree, yet also has a crisp-as-new profile and edges. Clearly, there is a difference versus service polishing.

In both cases, some minute amount of metal is removed. Yet, re-cutting keeps or restores the shape of the watch.

But OK, parley (for now) as others are requesting. Personally I like to misconstrue what you post to have a bit of fun, not that you are capable of perceiving that. And I disagree with much of what you say but we all have our opinions, although you consider yours as fact.

In all honesty, I hope you score a deal on the 5170 and that Patek makes it as right as you want. I know from experience they do laser welding and can polish in a way that you cannot tell it was done.

Happy upcoming birthday!
 

TheFoo

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Keep on drinking that Kool-aid. For a guy who knows the name of the tailor who stitches his suits I am surprised you take re-cutting on faith as any different than a normal polishing. To believe what you are saying means Patek has special machines for fresh watches that they refuse to use for used watches. Seems pretty suspect. Maybe you can confirm on your VIP tour.

If you think polishing at the time of manufacture is the same as when a watch is serviced, how do you explain the fact that new watches have crisp edges and later polished watches are less crisp? The processes are different.

In fact, re-cutting versus polishing is an ongoing topic of some controversy, as collectors fear that re-cutting a watch makes it indistinguishable from an “unpolished” one. Take for example LA Watchworks in California, probably the most favored Rolex restorers in the world right now. They are able to put chamfers back onto vintage Rolexes that have been rounded off with regular polishing. They also call this “re-cutting”. The process is proprietary, so nobody seems to know exactly how they do it, but clearly it gets done.
 

chocomallo

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If you think polishing at the time of manufacture is the same as when a watch is serviced, how do you explain the fact that new watches have crisp edges and later polished watches are less crisp? The processes are different.

In fact, re-cutting versus polishing is an ongoing topic of some controversy, as collectors fear that re-cutting a watch makes it indistinguishable from an “unpolished” one. Take for example LA Watchworks in California, probably the most favored Rolex restorers in the world right now. They are able to put chamfers back onto vintage Rolexes that have been rounded off with regular polishing. They also call this “re-cutting”. The process is proprietary, so nobody seems to know exactly how they do it, but clearly it gets done.

Well LA Watchworks certainly knows how they do it and they do it by polishing and sanding and brushing and whatever finish they apply the the existing case. Or they weld steel onto the case and do one of the foregoing. To think otherwise is willful blindness. You cannot hold the view that a polish alters the case but there can be other actions taken to the case that restore it without altering the case without believing in magic.
 

chocomallo

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If you think polishing at the time of manufacture is the same as when a watch is serviced, how do you explain the fact that new watches have crisp edges and later polished watches are less crisp? The processes are different.

In fact, re-cutting versus polishing is an ongoing topic of some controversy, as collectors fear that re-cutting a watch makes it indistinguishable from an “unpolished” one. Take for example LA Watchworks in California, probably the most favored Rolex restorers in the world right now. They are able to put chamfers back onto vintage Rolexes that have been rounded off with regular polishing. They also call this “re-cutting”. The process is proprietary, so nobody seems to know exactly how they do it, but clearly it gets done.

Think of it this way. To cut something is to remove a piece from the original whole. To do it again means to add the cut piece back and do it over. The only technique I have heard of is laser welding to fill in certain minor scratches then polish as normal in any service polish. I would love to be proved wrong though. And I mean that sincerely and not to antagonize you as I normally do.
 

TheFoo

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Well LA Watchworks certainly knows how they do it and they do it by polishing and sanding and brushing and whatever finish they apply the the existing case. Or they weld steel onto the case and do one of the foregoing. To think otherwise is willful blindness. You cannot hold the view that a polish alters the case but there can be other actions taken to the case that restore it without altering the case without believing in magic.

Think of it this way. To cut something is to remove a piece from the original whole. To do it again means to add the cut piece back and do it over. The only technique I have heard of is laser welding to fill in certain minor scratches then polish as normal in any service polish. I would love to be proved wrong though. And I mean that sincerely and not to antagonize you as I normally do.

Like I said, whatever method you use, metal is removed. I am not implying otherwise. However, there is clearly a different polishing process used at time of manufacture versus during later service. The former preserves edges. The latter does not. Otherwise new watches would be indistinguishable from lightly polished ones.

“Re-cutting”, as LAWW does and which Patek says they would do in a “restore to stock condition” situation, appears to restore edges rather than smooth them out, though material is of course removed. LAWW does not always weld-on more material in this process. Patek will only laser weld at their own discretion and certainly not in the case of hairline scratches. Regardless, there will always be less metal after than before.

In contrast, if you send your watch to Patek, Rolex, JLC, etc. for a factory service polishing, you will get some rounding-off of the case profile.

LAWW would not be able to do what they do unless “re-cutting” were a real thing. And I have never heard anyone contest this until now. The results speak for themselves, whatever the details of the process.
 

taxgenius

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For **** sake, you two are worse than a couple of ******* children. If you really feel the need to continue your horological dick measuring contest, do it in private.

FTFY
 

Phileas Fogg

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All this talk of cutting and recutting is giving me the chills

1611845945880.jpeg
 

Dino944

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I’ve never understood the cyclops lens on the sub. The sub is the quintessential dive watch. It’s primary function is to inform the diver of the time he has spent at depth. Any feature on the watch that may interfere with that seems counterproductive.

I used to dive and I can tell you, sometimes visibility is not that great.

The ability to the tell date is non-essential.

Agreed. Still isn't the solution with Rolex if one wants no distractions/non essential info on the dial to simply opt for the Submariner (No Date) rather than the Submariner Date.

It seems most companies make the compromise of adding a date to their diving watches, at least to broaden their appeal. I guess they suspect most of these watches are worn in the office rather than the ocean, so Rolex puts a date on the Sea-Dwellers and Deep Sea models. Omega puts them on most of their Seamasters, BP puts them on their Fifty Fathoms, IWC put it on their Porsche Design Ocean 2000, their GST, and their Aquatimers, and Breitling puts it on their Superocean.
 

NakedYoga

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Still isn't the solution with Rolex if one wants no distractions/non essential info on the dial to simply opt for the Submariner (No Date) rather than the Submariner Date.
I'm not in the market for a Submariner, but of course that doesn't stop me from virtual window shopping on Chrono24. Am I correct in that the references with the cyclops generally go for several thousand dollars more for a no-date version of comparable condition on the gray market?
 

9thsymph

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I'm not in the market for a Submariner, but of course that doesn't stop me from virtual window shopping on Chrono24. Am I correct in that the references with the cyclops generally go for several thousand dollars more for a no-date version of comparable condition on the gray market?

Isn't the grey market price just an extension of the msrp price difference, for the most part? The no-date is less at retail, so....
 

Dino944

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I'm not in the market for a Submariner, but of course that doesn't stop me from virtual window shopping on Chrono24. Am I correct in that the references with the cyclops generally go for several thousand dollars more for a no-date version of comparable condition on the gray market?

If one bought a Rolex Submariner or Submariner Date, there was always a price difference with the Sub Date being more expensive, but over the years the price difference has gotten larger. I believe the current Sub MSRP is $8,100 while the price of the Sub Date is $9,150. Gray dealers are going to upcharge on both models, and they will charge more for the Sub Date. How much more they charge depends on the dealer. However, Rolex and gray dealers know they can charge more for the Date version. There are always some people who simply have to have a date on their watches. I've read many complaints from former Daytona owners who sold their Daytona because they were too used to having a date on other watches, and not having one drove them crazy. I can live with or without a date on a sports watch. I prefer no date on a dress watch.
 

Phileas Fogg

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Isn't the grey market price just an extension of the msrp price difference, for the most part? The no-date is less at retail, so....

I would think desirability would be the bigger factor. If you look on chrono or Bob’s, sometimes steel and gold sells for less than steel. I know with the Daytona, I’ve seen the black dial sell sometimes for more and sometimes less (controlling for other variables) which I can only conclude is due to market forces as opposed to the MSRP, seeing as how it would be the same for both.
 

sinnedk

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If one bought a Rolex Submariner or Submariner Date, there was always a price difference with the Sub Date being more expensive, but over the years the price difference has gotten larger. I believe the current Sub MSRP is $8,100 while the price of the Sub Date is $9,150. Gray dealers are going to upcharge on both models, and they will charge more for the Sub Date. How much more they charge depends on the dealer. However, Rolex and gray dealers know they can charge more for the Date version. There are always some people who simply have to have a date on their watches. I've read many complaints from former Daytona owners who sold their Daytona because they were too used to having a date on other watches, and not having one drove them crazy. I can live with or without a date on a sports watch. I prefer no date on a dress watch.

I wish to live in a world where I am annoyed that my Daytona has no date on it LOL. I won’t sell though.
 

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