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Phileas Fogg

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Why do I get a sense that a conversation between some brands and their AD’s would sound and look very similar to the opening scene from Glengarry Glen Ross.
 

Texasmade

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I'm surprised they are still an AD. It was my understanding the only "ADs" that would be allowed to carry the brand were those that partnered with AP to open an AP Boutique. A owner of a shop that was an AP AD, and which currently carries VC, Lange, FPJ, IWC, JLC, Piaget, Omega, Chopard, Panerai, etc.) was telling me and a friend the cost of going into that venture was just too cost prohibitive and not worth it for them. AP ended up opening their own boutique about 3 blocks away from them.
Might be some agreement between the AD and AP where AP can't cancel the agreement or AP still wants to have a presence in Houston and not funnel everyone to the Dallas boutique.
 

Texasmade

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Also want to add that this AD is essentially the AD for a lot Richemont brands and FPJ. They have VC, Piaget, JLC, Panerai, Buame and Mercier, IWC, and Montblanc. They recently added Lange to their umbrella to cover more of the Richemont brand. All they're missing is Cartier to get the heavy hitters of Richemont.
 

TheFoo

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Also want to add that this AD is essentially the AD for a lot Richemont brands and FPJ. They have VC, Piaget, JLC, Panerai, Buame and Mercier, IWC, and Montblanc. They recently added Lange to their umbrella to cover more of the Richemont brand. All they're missing is Cartier to get the heavy hitters of Richemont.

Yeah, but Patek, Rolex and AP (read: “RO”) have separated themselves from the pack. The rest don’t command nearly as much leverage over their AD partners.
 

am55

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He's asking if anyone has heard of the brand or seen it IRL. It's right there in his post:

Has anyone heard of it or seen one in the wild?
Well, to be more specific, has anyone heard of this particular model. Because Foo thrives in the Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen of classical/Trinity watch collecting, this is so far from his domain of interest as to warrant ignoring on sight (the same, I assume, holds for Dino, whose more reserved style prevents him from commenting unless asked or the subject falls within his area of interest). Not a bad choice mind you; by casting a broader net, 99% of the information I end up loading will disappear into history with the odd ripple in forum archives the only indication that there was, once, a brand, a watch, a discussion. Foo is more likely to find use for his knowledge in 10-20 years. If Genta's own brand watches hadn't been branded Genta who would remember them today?

BWF is or was one of the contenders for the rising Chinese watch industry. Like Sea Gull (and here more favoured brands like Nomos whose Alpha was also a modified ETA 7001 and started the brand), or Seiko back in the days, it copied to learn.

The Beihai that made waves amongst PMW buyers was an unmodified Miyota copy with a circular take on the Patek Gondolo dial. However BWF was distinguished by rock bottom prices, relatively good QC, relatively classical/Western tastes compared to SG or Fitya which are visibly and distinctly Chinese-in-the-90s, and then it came out with the Wu Ji that showed there was more than a copy paste rebrand operation going on (although a machine finished tourbillon for $75k has value primarily in the historical or novelty or national pride factor). Celadon watches which were relatively well received here trusted BWF enough to base much of their line on it, although Benjamin Chee returned to Switzerland for his more upscale BCHH brand which use Vaucher Fleurier.

As of now I think this enamel dial watch is their most expensive offering (and therefore flagship?) even with the doubling of price for their tourbillons, together with the fired enamel dials. So I am curious about the thinking behind it, and how they justify the price. The added mystery from the closure of Xi's China to the West is to be fair part of it.
 

CorozoButton

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Bit late with a picture as I picked this up mid-last year. This has pretty much been my only big purchase over COVID.
I understand it's not to everyone's taste, but I'm a real sucker for 34mm on my tiny, tiny wrists.
Complete calendars at this size are few and far between, and effectively none in current line-ups as far as I'm aware (to be expected).
From 1990:
1611701085234.png
 

TheFoo

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Well, to be more specific, has anyone heard of this particular model. Because Foo thrives in the Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen of classical/Trinity watch collecting, this is so far from his domain of interest as to warrant ignoring on sight (the same, I assume, holds for Dino, whose more reserved style prevents him from commenting unless asked or the subject falls within his area of interest). Not a bad choice mind you; by casting a broader net, 99% of the information I end up loading will disappear into history with the odd ripple in forum archives the only indication that there was, once, a brand, a watch, a discussion. Foo is more likely to find use for his knowledge in 10-20 years. If Genta's own brand watches hadn't been branded Genta who would remember them today?

BWF is or was one of the contenders for the rising Chinese watch industry. Like Sea Gull (and here more favoured brands like Nomos whose Alpha was also a modified ETA 7001 and started the brand), or Seiko back in the days, it copied to learn.

The Beihai that made waves amongst PMW buyers was an unmodified Miyota copy with a circular take on the Patek Gondolo dial. However BWF was distinguished by rock bottom prices, relatively good QC, relatively classical/Western tastes compared to SG or Fitya which are visibly and distinctly Chinese-in-the-90s, and then it came out with the Wu Ji that showed there was more than a copy paste rebrand operation going on (although a machine finished tourbillon for $75k has value primarily in the historical or novelty or national pride factor). Celadon watches which were relatively well received here trusted BWF enough to base much of their line on it, although Benjamin Chee returned to Switzerland for his more upscale BCHH brand which use Vaucher Fleurier.

As of now I think this enamel dial watch is their most expensive offering (and therefore flagship?) even with the doubling of price for their tourbillons, together with the fired enamel dials. So I am curious about the thinking behind it, and how they justify the price. The added mystery from the closure of Xi's China to the West is to be fair part of it.

Earnest question: what about this watch is appealing to you? Is it the aesthetics, the overall value proposition?

The aesthetics are hard for me to appreciate. The case is unobjectionable, but the dial has a very mid-90’s Taipei corporate lobby feel to me (that’s not a good thing). The birds, sun, and clouds come across less as artistic expression and more as generic clip art. The Forbidden City logo is cheesy—like a French brand using the Eiffel tower. So what if the dial is enamel? More important to me that it look refined and well-executed than it lay claim to any particular handicraft.

The mechanicals sound unremarkable and a bad value considering that the same price gets you into Rolex/JLC/IWC/Grand Seiko territory (minus a gold case).

So, what I see is a not-good-looking watch that would be overpriced if not for the material its case is made of. Personally, that doesn’t have much appeal. I’d rather get better mechanical substance in a steel case from a maker with a longer and more reliable track record.

If we were looking at something artistic, or at the very least artisanal, I might feel different. But I don’t think we are looking at anything like that.
 

bdavro23

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Just saw that BWF wants $6.6k for this BG951001 (actually, ~$15k on the Chinese site):

View attachment 1543036

No information, no movement photo, although they did take the time to tell us the name sounds like "eminent". But gold case, an ETA 7001 movement (unmodified?), and a remarkably neat and uncluttered design given the other attempts at depicting stuff on the dials by the brand (IMO they do much better with the Bauhaus and minimalist-modern designs). I'm quite curious now. Has anyone heard of it or seen one in the wild?

This looks like something you'd see airbrushed on the side of a Trans-Am in the 80s...
 

TheFoo

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Some watches I’d point to for similar or less money:

$4,300:
025D943E-6E2E-449F-9529-4D75CFFCC218.png


$5,600:
1611710453295.jpeg


$5,950
1611711343956.jpeg


$6,700:
1611710754969.jpeg


And those are retail prices. Actual cost would obviously be a good bit lower.
 

NakedYoga

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Some watches I’d point to for similar or less money:

$4,300:
View attachment 1543512

$5,600:
View attachment 1543513

$5,950
View attachment 1543535

$6,700:
View attachment 1543521

And those are retail prices. Actual cost would obviously be a good bit lower.
Really like that Grand Seiko and the Speedy. Thinking of buying a Speedy. There's an Omega AD a couple blocks from my office--might have to go check it out. Although the more I look at them, the more I lean towards the Reduced (ref. 3510.50--the discontinued one) because I just really don't like the shape of the seconds hand on the Speedmaster Professional. I prefer the straight seconds hand on the Reduced.
 

am55

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Earnest question: what about this watch is appealing to you? Is it the aesthetics, the overall value proposition?

The aesthetics are hard for me to appreciate. The case is unobjectionable, but the dial has a very mid-90’s Taipei corporate lobby feel to me (that’s not a good thing). The birds, sun, and clouds come across less as artistic expression and more as generic clip art. The Forbidden City logo is cheesy—like a French brand using the Eiffel tower. So what if the dial is enamel? More important to me that it look refined and well-executed than it lay claim to any particular handicraft.

The mechanicals sound unremarkable and a bad value considering that the same price gets you into Rolex/JLC/IWC/Grand Seiko territory (minus a gold case).

So, what I see is a not-good-looking watch that would be overpriced if not for the material its case is made of. Personally, that doesn’t have much appeal. I’d rather get better mechanical substance in a steel case from a maker with a longer and more reliable track record.

If we were looking at something artistic, or at the very least artisanal, I might feel different. But I don’t think we are looking at anything like that.
I'd say it stems from a difference in aesthetics. You remind me of an almost pure Roger Scruton-esque search for classical beauty, with the definition thereof fluid with your life experience (and incorporating practical aspects as well as aesthetic). I'm more of a post-modernist looking for new information, prizing ideas for how orthogonal they are to what I know already.

The watch itself: I actually dislike the case. This calls for something like the Nomos Lambda's. I think the cranes are well executed, relatively balanced, delicate and I like the spot of colour on the head. But can't shake the feeling this is thematically close to the "phoenix" urushi Credor (GBAQ958), not just the colours but the modern take on the clouds and waves.

You can't really criticise the movement without seeing it. 7001 can be plain, and it might even be quite likely given the history of the brand; it can also be the heavily modified version that powers this Blancpain, or the decorated movements custom-made for Ben Chee.

I'm kind of fond of 1990s Taiwan. The place was growing fast with relatively limited corruption by regional standards, and did well post-1998. It's now a clean, pleasant first world country that is worthy of its traditional Chinese heritage, and they did very well with covid. These motives and artwork can still be found in Straits-Chinese owned mid sized firms, or the lobby of real estate conglos.

This watch, or something like it, would have a place in my collection when meeting mainland Chinese for business, or Straits Chinese with a lot of pride for how the PRC has been doing. The parallel I'd draw on is that I've so far had the most positive reactions wearing ultra-cheap HMTs which NRIs often recognise (inciting pre-1991 nostalgia) and which really helps break the ice when it happens. But there is no real equivalent from Chinese brands; so far Japan has been leading the charge in high end Asian watches. I would love to have something Chinese in my collection. And a chunk of it I guess is connecting with and growing along that extraordinary thing happening in the PRC for a few decades. Maybe not Tintin and the Soviets, but perhaps Tintin in America. By the Black Island I feel it's getting late.

Smartphones: I've "quit" Apple with the 4S, and after going through a few brands settled on Xiaomi (but it could well have been Huawei) who delivers consistent innovation a couple generations ahead of the Western branded phones. Little features like dual SIM (invaluable abroad especially if you need a lot of 2FA with your home SIM) or infrared blaster (sooo useful in AC land), but also the cutting edge of innovation on major features particularly cameras. I put up with all the ways in which Chinese software sucks (due to a combination of engineers who copy rather than deeply understand, and a "move fast and break things" culture combined with ruthless competition between departments); with some tweaks you can get a pretty reliable device anyway. It's really hard to get excited about devices 4x more expensive that feel a couple generations behind, even if the software is a work of art. At the same time I completely understand why for most people Apple has a far superior UX.

This makes me think: a truly impressive (IMO, and obviously not for this thread) Chinese watch was the Xiaomi Watch - the original "full computer on the wrist" that looked close to the Apple Watch yet uniquely Chinese and different, not the round things - which I tried to buy for a while without success. It still feels like wearables history. Maybe time to check Aliexpress.
 
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am55

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The thing I've learnt handling GSes and Credors is how different they are from the photos. Whilst Rolex seems to be doing a good job representing its products, a GS promo shot might as well be fan fiction. That delicate ice blue might end up looking like those fluorescent slushy machines, zaratsu looks nothing like the photos, the proportions themselves seem different on the wrist... so when looking at these Chinese watches and their blurry, pixelated, badly translated promotional material I'm thinking "there is no way it looks like this". Is the gold applied or painted on? What is the cheek made of? How deep is the glaze? etc. hence the curiosity about a real life experience with the unit.
 

Scuppers

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The thing I've learnt handling GSes and Credors is how different they are from the photos. Whilst Rolex seems to be doing a good job representing its products, a GS promo shot might as well be fan fiction. That delicate ice blue might end up looking like those fluorescent slushy machines, zaratsu looks nothing like the photos, the proportions themselves seem different on the wrist... so when looking at these Chinese watches and their blurry, pixelated, badly translated promotional material I'm thinking "there is no way it looks like this". Is the gold applied or painted on? What is the cheek made of? How deep is the glaze? etc. hence the curiosity about a real life experience with the unit.
RE: Grand Seiko, quite right. While their chronometry may have brought them to my attention when COSC had to rewrite the rule book, their presence, in person, washed away all interest in ever owning one.
 

Idesofmarch17

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RE: Grand Seiko, quite right. While their chronometry may have brought them to my attention when COSC had to rewrite the rule book, their presence, in person, washed away all interest in ever owning one.
Interesting. Never owned one but I’ve heard people say the GS tend to be even prettier in person.
 

bdavro23

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RE: Grand Seiko, quite right. While their chronometry may have brought them to my attention when COSC had to rewrite the rule book, their presence, in person, washed away all interest in ever owning one.

This is surprising. The Grand Seikos I've handled have had really nice finishing. What specifically are you referring to?
 

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