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Ebitdaddy

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I've always thought it's kind of funny that people think that fake manufacturers are able to make a fake Rolex or Patek so close to genuine that only a watchmaker could spot it but also somehow can't figure out how to make a box or a set of papers :-D
Yes it's incredibly stupid thinking that has never made sense to me. There are loads of great fake papers/boxes. The ONLY way anyone can tell a superfake is fake would be opening it up. Anyone who says otherwise has never touched a superfake or frankenwatch.

I was once selling one of my Langes and people kept insisting it must be fake if it doesn't have box/papers. Objectively stupid because you really can't fake the finishing of a Lange or get anywhere close to it.
 

scurvyfreedman

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Yes it's incredibly stupid thinking that has never made sense to me. There are loads of great fake papers/boxes. The ONLY way anyone can tell a superfake is fake would be opening it up. Anyone who says otherwise has never touched a superfake or frankenwatch.

I was once selling one of my Langes and people kept insisting it must be fake if it doesn't have box/papers. Objectively stupid because you really can't fake the finishing of a Lange or get anywhere close to it.
And, what is the market for selling fake Langes? It's not like it's a publicly known brand. The only people who buy them know about the finishing and details. With a display back it's impossible to fake. Is there money to be made faking swan neck regulator and free sprung balance wheel?
 

Ebitdaddy

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And, what is the market for selling fake Langes? It's not like it's a publicly known brand. The only people who buy them know about the finishing and details. With a display back it's impossible to fake. Is there money to be made faking swan neck regulator and free sprung balance wheel?
Exactly my point lol. Lack of box and papers doesn't magically make anything more likely to be fake.
 

scurvyfreedman

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Exactly my point lol. Lack of box and papers doesn't magically make anything more likely to be fake.
I bought my wife a used JLC Reverso Duetto without box and papers. I'm not sure anyone would go through the trouble of a silver guilloche dial and a two faced, self-wind movement for a watch that probably sells maybe one thousand units annually - probably a lot fewer.

I bought a separate JLC travel box from eBay. Funny thing was, when I gave it to her, she asked, "are there papers?" I said, I have the JLC catalog from 2001 that has a lot of details on the watch if you are interested. She said, "no, I just knew that's a thing from listening to you talk about watches."
 

Ranjeev

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Context is important when thinking about box and papers. I lusted after a Zenith Chronomaster El Primero Moonphase for years. The one I wanted was hard to locate and I finally found one at a fair price. No box or papers. I didn't care because it was a watch that was unlikely to be faked, I wasn't likely to ever sell it and if I did, any loss in value wouldn't be that much given how much I paid for the watch so I could live with it. If I was buying a modern PP, AP or Rolex in the secondary market now I want box and papers. For vintage, I would only purchase from a trusted seller knowing that is unlikely that a 30 or 40 year old watch will have box and papers and I want as much comfort as possible.
 

Dino944

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and That’s another school of thought. I suppose as long as resale is not a concern then it’s up to the individuals taste.

I know in the world of car collecting there’s a move toward keeping the car as original, including paint, as possible.

Perhaps @Dino944 can chime in as he’s more knowledgeable.
People are free to do whatever they want with the watch. Some people want functioning lum, and don't care about the value of a watch, so they swap in a service dial with modern lum and that's great for them. For me, I'm all about originality. Not because of value, but because original watches in great condition, are not easy to find. Most were used regularly and not babied, unlike today's watches where you have a choice of many 5-10 year old Pateks in the cardboard shipping cases that no one has worn. Then again, I'm very OCD. I would only purchase a watch with boxes and papers, not just because of comfort with authenticity, but simply because I want everything that came with my watch when new. I don't throw anything out...and I'm that way with my cars too. In the 1980's Ferraris were not delivered with radios, just speakers, wires, and a power antenna. The slot where the radio would go was a metal piece covered in leather (a blanking plate), which the dealers usually threw out when they installed a radio. I have the blanking plate for my car, bill of sale, books, tools, original key fob (that used on ebay sells for $600+). I just prefer having the complete package for whatever I own (watch, car, or whatever else I may have).

You are correct, a totally original low mileage condition 1 show quality car, is always more sought after than a fully restored car. A car is only original once. Anyone can have a car re-sprayed at a paint shop, have the carpets replaced, and the leather re-dyed or replaced, but a car that is basically the condition in which it left the factory in Italy, Germany, or England (depending on brand), is rare and really what true collectors seek. They love small details like original marks in the engine bay from the guys who assembled the cars, or Dinol or cosmoline seal undercoating on the cars (which hasn't been removed over the years), and all the little documents (books/paperwork), and small details that were often thrown out or lost when cars changed hands over the years. In addition, if a restored car is in a car show, if it has been made even better than new, it is considered over-restored and it can even lose points in a show. Car collectors are a slightly crazy, but interesting and fun in their own way.
 

Dino944

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This Patek 5712 is a recent addition for me. Looking forward to creating memories with it. Have a great weekend everyone!

Congrats! That's a beauty, and the only modern Patek I've really been in love with in recent years. Enjoy it! :cheers:
 

Omega Male

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Again, very.
 

NakedYoga

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I just took delivery yesterday of a brace of Amazon golf shorts. Maybe I'll spring for the cardigan when the weather actually cools down.
 

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