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Deeky

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Most brands have probably used JLC movements at some point. But it doesn't usually mean that brand literally took a JLC movement and planted it in their own case and left it at that - often they were improved on worked on.

Furthermore looking at these two movements (in Breguet's entry level classique and JLC's entry level Master ultra thin in gold), I would say the Breguet is far better finished - the price difference between is only about 2.5-3k

View attachment 1629350

View attachment 1629351
Could you elaborate?
 

9thsymph

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“...and one has hand finishing and the other does not, the one with hand finishing is better value.

This is not subjective“

JFC! Read this a few times if you need to and try to figure out why it is, in fact, absolutely subjective (hint: the word value simply begs the question).

Do better.
 

Deeky

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As I said mere minutes ago, I wouldn't be surprised if someone now comes up to defend machine finishing as being better or more valuable than hand finishing, and here we are.
 

Deeky

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I never knew I would have to explain the merits of hand finishing over machine finishing in an enthusiast forum, but this thread has been full of surprises
 

9thsymph

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I never knew I would have to explain the merits of hand finishing over machine finishing in an enthusiast forum, but this thread has been full of surprises
You have COMPLETELY missed the point, but of course...
 

Deeky

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It seems to me that you are the one who has completely missed the simple point I was making all this while, which is that when 2 watches are sold at a very similar price point, and one has hand finishing/haute horology touches and the other doesnt, then the former is better value.

That's it. There is no subjectivity in this. A person may of course still choose the latter for whatever reason (brand loyalty etc), but the value proposition of the former is always objectively better (unless there is a difference in resale value, but JLC does not have better resale than Breguet or ALS).
 

9thsymph

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It seems to me that you are the one who has completely missed the simple point I was making all this while, which is that when 2 watches are sold at a very similar price point, and one has hand finishing/haute horology touches and the other doesnt, then the former is better value.

That's it. There is no subjectivity in this. A person may of course still choose the latter for whatever reason (brand loyalty etc), but the value proposition of the former is always objectively better (unless there is a difference in resale value, but JLC does not have better resale than Breguet or ALS).
Yep. Got it. Big misunderstanding. You make perfect sense re positioning your values as THE values. I’ve now adopted your perspective (my perspectives were “wrong”. They were based on OTHER values [fuck THAT], which I must obviously reject so that the commissioner of VALUE recognizes and gives meaning to my “choices” from now on...). Enjoying my newly-found objective value! Cheers, man! Thanks 1m!
 

Nickd

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Not worried about watches. I do worry about the broader social implications of the rhetorical tactics on display here. Just kind of sad...
‘Twas ever thus though. Value, which is always going to be subjective, depends on how one measures it. Honestly none of the watches mentioned in this thread are good value in the eyes of the ordinary man in the street.
 

Drek Galloche

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'Value is subjective' is a non-argument. It is not a position or intellectual conclusion. It is what sophomore 'intellectualz' say to excuse theirs or others poor taste and propose that all opinions have equal validity.
 

Phileas Fogg

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'Value is subjective' is a non-argument. It is not a position or intellectual conclusion. It is what sophomore 'intellectualz' say to excuse theirs or others poor taste and propose that all opinions have equal validity.
better to say value is vague.
 

Loathing

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'Value is subjective' is a non-argument. It is not a position or intellectual conclusion. It is what sophomore 'intellectualz' say to excuse theirs or others poor taste and propose that all opinions have equal validity.
Right, so presumably you have a higher degree of understanding of epistemology than a sophomore philosophy student. Graduate level perhaps? Or PhD? And yet you don’t seem to be familiar with the fundamental distinction between values and facts:

 

Drek Galloche

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Value is the result of supply/demand dynamics. Queasy-intellectual philosophical masturbations do not need to apply.
 

Loathing

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You’re confusing price with value — supply and demand dynamics determine the prices of things, not their value. And given we were talking about two watches that are the same price (one hand finished and one not), how can supply and demand dynamics possibly tell you their difference in value?
 

am55

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This thread be like:


The seagulls are screaming "value is subjective!" "there is no such thing!" and many on the ship are thinking about getting closer and telling it like it is to the volatiles but the wise chose is the leftermost ship who's heading to the discussion of guilloche mishaps and the pitfalls of QC under Richemont stewardship
 

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