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TheFoo

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I didn’t think there was much difference in finish quality between JLC and Breguet. Some even used JLC movements

to be fair I am less than a watch dabbler only using one (s)watch.
JLC ebauches were once common amongst most of the top tier makers. But those makers heavily reworked and finished those movements. JLC has never tried to compete at that level.
 

TheFoo

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Again, based on your reasoning the Submariner is a rip-off…..the Speedmaster would actually fit what you’re describing.

But, I now see your bias so it doesn’t matter anymore :)
Not sure what is hard to follow here. The Sub is better at different things than something like a gold JLC calendar chronograph, whereas the JLC is inferior in every critical respect compared to similar priced watches from better makers. Its only advantage is the relatively low cost of its complications—which is precisely why pumping up the price to pay for a gold case doesn’t make a lot of sense.

As a sport watch, Rolexes are generally nicer than Omegas. Sturdier build, better QC, better finish, better materials, etc. A Speedmaster is a phenomenal watch and even more phenomenal when considering the relatively low price, but one only need handle it side-by-side with a Submariner to immediately tell that the latter is much more substantial and expensive feeling.
 

lexmann

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Not sure what is hard to follow here. The Sub is better at different things than something like a gold JLC calendar chronograph, whereas the JLC is inferior in every critical respect compared to similar priced watches from better makers. Its only advantage is the relatively low cost of its complications—which is precisely why pumping up the price to pay for a gold case doesn’t make a lot of sense.

As a sport watch, Rolexes are generally nicer than Omegas. Sturdier build, better QC, better finish, better materials, etc. A Speedmaster is a phenomenal watch and even more phenomenal when considering the relatively low price, but one only need handle it side-by-side with a Submariner to immediately tell that the latter is much more substantial and expensive feeling.
"JLC is inferior in every critical respect". Sorry. Totally disagree.
 

Viral

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Not sure what is hard to follow here. The Sub is better at different things than something like a gold JLC calendar chronograph, whereas the JLC is inferior in every critical respect compared to similar priced watches from better makers. Its only advantage is the relatively low cost of its complications—which is precisely why pumping up the price to pay for a gold case doesn’t make a lot of sense.

As a sport watch, Rolexes are generally nicer than Omegas. Sturdier build, better QC, better finish, better materials, etc. A Speedmaster is a phenomenal watch and even more phenomenal when considering the relatively low price, but one only need handle it side-by-side with a Submariner to immediately tell that the latter is much more substantial and expensive feeling.
Not hard to follow from my side, perhaps you should reread what you inferred.

According to you, a JLC reverso in gold is not a value because the price is higher than the quality that goes into it (machine finished, simple movement, etc,).

So, based on that same logic, I’m saying that a Submariner would also prove to not be a value for the price. I assume it’s NOT machine made and has a very complicated movement assembled by hand (Educate me bro)?
The Sub may feel better in hand and have more substance, but it’s hardly a saint if one were to apply your logic which you stated about the Reverso in gold.

The Sub benefits from its iconic design and status and that’s about it. It’s not worth the price for what goes into it. As it’s MSRP creeps higher over the years, it will be come a diminished return even more than perhaps it is now. By show of hands, who wants a steel watch for over 10K with no complications which you cannot even get unless you buy something you don’t want or play the wait-list game???

In general, if this is how you think when you shop then I don’t know what else to say. Do you, boo.

Kapeesh??
 

TheFoo

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Not hard to follow from my side, perhaps you should reread what you inferred.

According to you, a JLC reverso in gold is not a value because the price is higher than the quality that goes into it (machine finished, simple movement, etc,).

So, based on that same logic, I’m saying that a Submariner would also prove to not be a value for the price. I assume it’s NOT machine made and has a very complicated movement assembled by hand (Educate me bro)?
The Sub may feel better in hand and have more substance, but it’s hardly a saint if one were to apply your logic which you stated about the Reverso in gold.

The Sub benefits from its iconic design and status and that’s about it. It’s not worth the price for what goes into it. As it’s MSRP creeps higher over the years, it will be come a diminished return even more than perhaps it is now. By show of hands, who wants a steel watch for over 10K with no complications which you cannot even get unless you buy something you don’t want or play the wait-list game???

In general, if this is how you think when you shop then I don’t know what else to say. Do you, boo.

Kapeesh??
You aren’t following the logic properly.

Again, the Sub has advantages over a JLC (or a Patek for that matter), as it is designed for a different use. For example, the movements are purposefully built to be thicker and more robust in order to be more durable. They are two different watches that are designed to emphasize different functions and qualities.

I never said hand vs. machine finishing is some sort of on/off toggle for “value” free of context.

Conversely, JLC watches serve a similar use case compared to Pateks, VCs, Langes, etc. Yet the latter are superior in virtually every measure relevant to what they are: dressy watches, often with complications. Better finishing, finer movements, finer cases, etc. JLC isn’t trying to be less refined than them—they just are as a result of building to a lower cost.

Hence comparing Rolex to JLC is not at all analogous to comparing JLC to Patek/VC/Lange, etc.
 
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forex

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What is with the most recent gray market price hike for Rolex? Ceramic Daytona’s were hovering around $25K and now they are over $30K. You could get the GMT root beer for almost its MSRP in the gray market, now they are well over $20K.
Why are people paying almost 3x retail for a watch?
 

TheFoo

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What is with the most recent gray market price hike for Rolex? Ceramic Daytona’s were hovering around $25K and now they are over $30K. You could get the GMT root beer for almost its MSRP in the gray market, now they are well over $20K.
Why are people paying almost 3x retail for a watch?
Too much liquidity chasing inelastic supply. Not trying to be pedantic, but I really think that’s the story. Happening to cars and houses too.
 
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9thsymph

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Guys you’re not following the logic. Start following the logic. The logic is whatever foo calls the logic. That’s how logic works. Always been this way...
 

TheFoo

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Guys you’re not following the logic. Start following the logic. The logic is whatever foo calls the logic. That’s how logic works. Always been this way...
Dude, whatever. I explained. Three times. If I’m doing it poorly, feel free to point out where.
 

am55

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What do you all think of de Bethune? The designs remind me of L Leroy
They photograph very well, particularly with contrast turned up, and have done some truly unique pieces.

In real life though I found them disappointing. They're large but not purposely so like a Panerai or RM. The blue that comes out so well in photos looks somewhat artificial without the interesting textural play that blued screws have on a classical design, for example - closer to a particularly vibrant plastic. In dim light they actually do look quite plasticy. Finally the proportions always feel off or somewhat unfinished, as if the designer rushed through or was deliberately trying to be different at the expense of coherence in design. Over here they are sold in the same place as Journe so the contrast is especially striking, since Journes tend to be very well put together and integrated, and work better in a range of light conditions (and the CB is, hmm, "bluer", not that I've ever seen it be available for purchase anywhere).
 

9thsymph

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Dude, whatever. I explained. Three times. If I’m doing it poorly, feel free to point out where.
My point about your relationship to “logic“ renders pointing out your poor handling of logic, a futile endeavor, as has been endlessly played out. But do enjoy your “logic”...
 

TheFoo

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My point about your relationship to “logic“ renders pointing out your poor handling of logic, a futile endeavor, as has been endlessly played out. But do enjoy your “logic”...
Lol it is hilarious how many people here think logic is some sort of subjective contrivance.
 

am55

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What is with the most recent gray market price hike for Rolex? Ceramic Daytona’s were hovering around $25K and now they are over $30K. You could get the GMT root beer for almost its MSRP in the gray market, now they are well over $20K.
Why are people paying almost 3x retail for a watch?
In a number of social circles they're an immediately acceptable watch* in a way very few options are (and those options are more expensive), and the difficulty of getting one is part of it. It's a shortcut and priced accordingly, although given that the hunt is what you can bond over, I'm not sure about the upside of taking the shortcut, especially given the near perfect fakes that flood the market all the way to the most reputed watch collectors (including over here, but since the person I'm thinking about has cleaned up their Google trail on the subject I'm not going to risk a lawsuit and post the name).

* You will either make friends or be mocked for the "irrational" purchase but rarely are people left cold, that is the point.
 

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