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earthdragon

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Does anybody think that maybe the ADs have been getting kickbacks from gray market dealers? Instead of selling a Daytona at MSRP ($13,150) to an individual consumer, the AD sells it to a gray for $12,000, who flips it for $20,000, and gives the AD $3,000 of the $8,000 profit. Shady practice that would explain why the ADs are short on stock while grays have plenty.
This sort of behavior likely goes on with some of the less than scrupulous AD's. I have only ever purchased from AD's at MSRP (and i work with two). One has helped me with four pieces and one with 3. The former are an absolute pleasure to deal with and I have waited no longer than 5 months for requested pieces. The latter are super high pressure when they call text and expect a purchase within the hour...
I am struggling to understand all of the vitriol directed towards the GM market on some of the watch forums presently. While not relevant to me, if someone is prepared to pay +50% or +100% for a hard to get watch are they not filling a void?
 

Ebitdaddy

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Yeah, I suspect there are a lot of people out there who make a good living but are financially overextended due to a desire to keep up with the Joneses. Buying a McMansion with an ARM, leasing a fancy car, buying designer clothing and nice watches on credit, etc.
Yup! I have so many friends that live like this. I don't know how they do it, I would find it really stressful.
 

Phileas Fogg

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I am struggling to understand all of the vitriol directed towards the GM market on some of the watch forums presently. While not relevant to me, if someone is prepared to pay +50% or +100% for a hard to get watch are they not filling a void?
yup! It’s the demand that creates a market. I don’t blame them a bit for taking advantage of people’s vanity and giving them what they want.

It’s odd that the same watch made with precious metals and stones will cost less than its stainless steel counterpart. It’s not a statement of wealth, it’s something deeper and needier.
 

Ambulance Chaser

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I am struggling to understand all of the vitriol directed towards the GM market on some of the watch forums presently. While not relevant to me, if someone is prepared to pay +50% or +100% for a hard to get watch are they not filling a void?
I think it's a product of frustration that desirable SS sports models that could be going to collectors are instead ending up in the hands of grays. This is part of the system that @Texasmade described, and any anger should be directed toward Rolex and the ADs instead. Don't hate the player, hate the game as the saying goes.
 

Phileas Fogg

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^ I get it. But why should Rolex, or watch collectors in general, be any different from collectors of in any other category. True collectors have to compete with speculators for art, cars, etc. I get it that watches are somewhat different in that they roll right out of the factory and are immediately gobbled up into the gray market or hoarded by an AD for reasons stated above.

when Ferrari rolls out a limited edition it hand selects those who will be offered the vehicle first. It’s usually people who are Ferrari enthusiasts who then sign a contract that they will not sell the vehicle in its first year of ownership and that Ferrari has the right of first refusal in any future reselling of that car.

of course we are talking about cars which can cost >$500k and not a $13k watch, but it is interesting how at least one sought after brand handles such matters concerning limited supply vs. abundant demand.
 

mak1277

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I think given the current economic environment, Rolex is probably feeling pretty good about its decision not to ramp up production.
 

Ambulance Chaser

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^ I get it. But why should Rolex, or watch collectors in general, be any different from collectors of in any other category. True collectors have to compete with speculators for art, cars, etc. I get it that watches are somewhat different in that they roll right out of the factory and are immediately gobbled up into the gray market or hoarded by an AD for reasons stated above.

when Ferrari rolls out a limited edition it hand selects those who will be offered the vehicle first. It’s usually people who are Ferrari enthusiasts who then sign a contract that they will not sell the vehicle in its first year of ownership and that Ferrari has the right of first refusal in any future reselling of that car.

of course we are talking about cars which can cost >$500k and not a $13k watch, but it is interesting how at least one sought after brand handles such matters concerning limited supply vs. abundant demand.
The contemporary art market is similar in some ways to the car and watch markets, but different in important respects as well. For access to pieces by hot artists, there is a clear pecking order: Museums and other art institutions at the top, followed by "name" collectors, followed by collectors with a prior purchasing history with the gallery. I'm behind those three groups, so I've accepted that I will have a difficult time buying certain artists.

Like the car market you mentioned, most galleries have instituted a right of first refusal to prevent flipping. But the art market has two significant differences. First, art galleries represent artists directly and are not under the same kinds of pressures to sell as car and watch dealers. Sure, they have to worry about artists leaving for a more prominent gallery, but they can hold pieces indefinitely and don't have to offload pieces that aren't selling. Second, art is not fungible--except for editions, each piece is unique. You may hate a piece that I love, and vice versa. Art is therefore much less liquid than cars and watches, where a Ferrari is (nearly) identical to another Ferrari and a Rolex Daytona is identical to another Rolex Daytona.
 

NakedYoga

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But why should Rolex, or watch collectors in general, be any different from collectors of in any other category. True collectors have to compete with speculators for art, cars, etc. I get it that watches are somewhat different in that they roll right out of the factory and are immediately gobbled up into the gray market or hoarded by an AD for reasons stated above.
Agreed. I'm more of an "aspiring" watch collector as it were, and I have nowhere near the knowledge, history, or understanding of probably 99% of the other people posting on this thread, but this idea of gatekeeping in certain subcultures is always interesting to see. I commented above elsewhere about the firearms community, and this gatekeeping issue applies there too, to some extent.

With watches, or anything else really, why is a "true collector" any more important or why would they have any superior claim to a particular watch as compared to any other person? What if I just like the way a Daytona looks and neither know nor care about its history, the craftsmanship, etc.? At the end of the day, it is a watch with a functional purpose (in contrast to paintings and other artwork), but to many it is also art, so it's not "just a watch."
 

Scuppers

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The contemporary art market is similar in some ways to the car and watch markets, but different in important respects as well. For access to pieces by hot artists, there is a clear pecking order: Museums and other art institutions at the top, followed by "name" collectors, followed by collectors with a prior purchasing history with the gallery. I'm behind those three groups, so I've accepted that I will have a difficult time buying certain artists.

Like the car market you mentioned, most galleries have instituted a right of first refusal to prevent flipping. But the art market has two significant differences. First, art galleries represent artists directly and are not under the same kinds of pressures to sell as car and watch dealers. Sure, they have to worry about artists leaving for a more prominent gallery, but they can hold pieces indefinitely and don't have to offload pieces that aren't selling. Second, art is not fungible--except for editions, each piece is unique. You may hate a piece that I love, and vice versa. Art is therefore much less liquid than cars and watches, where a Ferrari is (nearly) identical to another Ferrari and a Rolex Daytona is identical to another Rolex Daytona.
Contemporary art is the excuse of many to hold a certain standing.
Established art - all schools - is the excuse of many to posture.
And I’m an art collector.
 

Scuppers

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I do find the whole watch collector argument amusing.
Do we collect cuff links? For that matter, ties? Sports jackets?
They are just things we buy and wear - internally justify, yup. End of days, just consumerism and posturing.
 

Phileas Fogg

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I do find the whole watch collector argument amusing.
Do we collect cuff links? For that matter, ties? Sports jackets?
They are just things we buy and wear - internally justify, yup. End of days, just consumerism and posturing.
there are people who collect cuff links and ties as well. It’s just that the market is not there. One can collect anything, but if there’s not a market, then it’s just a collection. People collect hubcaps too.
 

Texasmade

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there are people who collect cuff links and ties as well. It’s just that the market is not there. One can collect anything, but if there’s not a market, then it’s just a collection. People collect hubcaps too.
There was this one Japanese NY Yankee player who liked to collect porn. I remember reading that he had a collection of like 10,000 movies.
 

double00

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There was this one Japanese NY Yankee player who liked to collect porn. I remember reading that he had a collection of like 10,000 movies.
matsui! when he came to oakland he gave porno to all his teammates and reporters. but, he ran out because of all the international press and then promised to bring more for everybody
 

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