The Ultimate Toronto Thread

[mebiuspower]

Don't understand why these companies are always based in Canada.

 

[Spaghettimatt]

Don't understand why these companies are always based in Canada.

It’s because know they have a guaranteed big spender customer in Jordan Peterson.

 

[othertravel]

On a related note, Tom Ford MTM at Harry's starts at $7100 + tax. Had a bit of sticker shock.

 

[diokanye]

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After my last entry dissecting the Attolini jacket, many people reached out regarding how much they enjoyed my informative description regarding everything I discovered within the lining. Several of you have offered to give me your old never-to-be-worn-again garments. Well, today I received a package from the States, it had several garments inside of it but I was most excited about one of them in particular. A Cucinelli suit, though my dissection for this entry only features the jacket. A removal of the sleeve and a slight curiosity what I would find under the facing.

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Jacket is a 48/38R, therefore the previous owner had the sleeves lengthened. I will only critique construction based on original production. This is why there is only two handmade buttonholes, done by the alteration tailor that did the work post-purchase. Aside from some buttonholes that was posted by another poster previously, I have only ever seen Cucinelli garments with machine buttonholes. Several ex-Cucinelli employees that are friends of mine were able to back this up. However, I know that Cucinelli production has changed a lot from previous B2B production to their now own private manufacturing.

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One thing that baffled a co-worker of mine was the shoulder construction, which used canvas as the sleevehead, but only on the front and back of the armhole. This is obviously intended to keep the front and back of the sleeve looking clean and rounded but not to take away any of the shirring from the centre.

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Between each canvassed sleeve head is domette, which I have found used as the sleevehead in Attolini jackets in the past. It's a soft fabric that is also used to canvas construction of chest pieces. Along the domette, you can see the many different stitches that display the steps that go into the sleeve construction of a jacket.

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The picture below, displays the construction of a Neapolitan sleeve, this is how I was taught to do them, however the sleeves I've dismantled in the past doing alterations from companies like Attolini or Orazio Luciano do not make them this way. There are two slits that are cut into the top-sleeve panel, and pressed backward into the shoulder, the picture above shows the top-stitching (machine) that holds the fabric back keeping it place.

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One thing I have not seen with any garment, is fusing along the edge of the top-sleeve, this is done for fast, mass-production. Sleeves are hung faster and with more ease and is a good example of cheap manufacturing. Behind the armhole seam, you can see the shoulder seam running perpendicular into the armhole. The fabric of the suit is a pinstripe, so that flat, blue non-pinstripe material you see holding the shoulder together is just more fusing.

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Hanging the jacket sans sleeve. From this picture you can see how soft the Cuccinelli shoulder is, there isn't a lot of padding. I was going to save it for my next post when I take apart the skeleton of the jacket, but without spoiling nor surprises, the shoulder pad is made up of a single layer of canvas and domette... from what I recall. Either way, it's pretty light.

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For comparison, the Attolini sleeve lining was attached with basting to the outseam of the jacket the same way that I was taught (only I was also taught to do the inseam as well. Cucinelli displays further examples of cheap manufacturing by anchoring the lining down with a piece of cloth to both the inseam and the outseam at the bottom near the vent opening of the cuff. Aside from these small anchors, the sleeve is mostly loose throughout the sleeve with nothing holding it in place:

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Similar to the way my bespoke garments are finished, Attolini did similar, seams, which were raised and top-stitched. This what is also what is referred to as a lapped seam. Cucinelli seams are all open, lapped seams provide durability and longevity whereas open seams are far more delicate and far easier to come undone and wear out faster. You can see that the seam was cut (similar to the neapolitan sleeve), but rather than folding both seams in the same direction and tacked down, Cucinelli leaves this seam open.

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I've noticed there can be a lot of confusion about prick-stitching and top-stitching as many people think it's done by hand. Factories use two different machines to do their edge stitching. One functions similar to a blind-stitch machine, Cuccinelli uses this on the inside of their facings and their piping. You can left up the edge and see a similar stitch pattern like that of a hemmed trouser. If you snag the stitch in the right place, you can see the whole seam unravel in just one pull. The other top-stitch machine is what you would see used along the edge of a jacket, collar, lapel, quarters and pocket flaps. It's a continuous thread that holds all of the layers together without all the mess on the bottom layer. This is what you will find on the edge of your Spier garments and other machine made products. I will include a picture at the end that shows the finishings under the collar that can exhibit how these machine stitches look.

If you look at the picture below, you can see the prick stitching runs in one continuous line crossing over from the lining to the piping of the fabric. This is something that would make no sense for any tailor to do by hand.

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The pornographic shot of the anatomy of the suit... that, unfortunately I will try to cover separately. However, because many of you have brought me Cuccinelli jackets for alterations, I can explain a lot of issues you all have with your jackets from the following pictures:

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Ironically, though you see full canvas, both the front panel and the facing are completely fused. Practically makes the full canvas useless. But what is even crazier is the lapel construction. Along the lapel crease line, we see a strip of fabric that is blind stitched to the jacket at the edge of the canvas... I have an odd suspicion that this may be Cuccinelli's really odd attempt at a bridle... Bridle-less or not, it cuts off the canvas and we don't see any more canvas run past the lapel crease. What is seen is more fusing; the lapel has absolutely zero structure to it at all. I've seen half-canvas production jackets that at least blind-stitch the lapels down.

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Alas, the only production hand-stitching I was able to uncover so far is the back of the collar sides:

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It is absolutely mind-blowing that Cucinelli suits can sell for over $4000 at Harry Rosen and become a household name with a luxury reputation, but nothing I have ever seen has had the opportunity to back this up. You can spend far less money and get superior product elsewhere. I'm getting pretty antsy and excited to start taking apart the construction of the chest and the trousers.

This jacket is very very old (like 10 years or so) and the manufacturing processes have changed since then

 

[Spaghettimatt]

This jacket is very very old (like 10 years or so) and the manufacturing processes have changed since then

What's the basis for this assertion? How do you know about Cucinelli's manufacturing processes?

 

[diokanye]

What's the basis for this assertion? How do you know about Cucinelli's manufacturing processes?

Lol Im in the design team

 

[Jamesbond1]

.

 

[JohnMRobie]

This jacket is very very old (like 10 years or so) and the manufacturing processes have changed since then

This is only interesting or worthwhile information knowing what has changed since then.

Also lol at a jacket that’s maybe 10 or so years old being described as “very very old” in this product category.

 

[stephentakesatrip]

On Nordstrom: Reports that they lost money for each of their eight years in Canada are interesting. They certainly gave it a go. The reports here are about menswear, but the picture is of course larger, including all the other departments, real estate costs, overall retail spending patterns, and macroeconomics.

Something that may have been a challenge was importing their most famous characteristic - service.

I moved to California (the Bay Area) in 2013, and found myself needing various supplies including clothing and housewares. I went to the Nordstrom at the Valley Fair Mall. This mall is so gigantic that taxes are different between retailers because the mall traverses two different counties that have different municipal tax levels. The mall also had a dozen or so entrances, so navigation was another challenge at first. Anyhow, I was travelling by taxi and mentioned this to the sales associate. She asked me to let her call the taxi, then she carried my purchases to the curb and waited with me for the taxi to arrive!

When my sister came to visit, we found ourselves at the San Francisco Nordstrom, where a sales associate suggested she just hand around the fitting room, and that staff would bring her items that fit. She loved this experience.

I just can't imagine this level of service at the Eaton Centre. Probably many reasons. But people (probably including many tourists) hoping for the Nordstrom experience didn't get all of it.

Now I do think their departure will be very hard to fill. I could imagine a grocery chain moving in to serve all the new downtown condos, but can't imagine another department store right now. Of course Canadian Tire and IKEA are on the block - another home improvement store could be a fit.

 

[mebiuspower]

On Nordstrom: Reports that they lost money for each of their eight years in Canada are interesting. They certainly gave it a go. The reports here are about menswear, but the picture is of course larger, including all the other departments, real estate costs, overall retail spending patterns, and macroeconomics.

Something that may have been a challenge was importing their most famous characteristic - service.

I moved to California (the Bay Area) in 2013, and found myself needing various supplies including clothing and housewares. I went to the Nordstrom at the Valley Fair Mall. This mall is so gigantic that taxes are different between retailers because the mall traverses two different counties that have different municipal tax levels. The mall also had a dozen or so entrances, so navigation was another challenge at first. Anyhow, I was travelling by taxi and mentioned this to the sales associate. She asked me to let her call the taxi, then she carried my purchases to the curb and waited with me for the taxi to arrive!

When my sister came to visit, we found ourselves at the San Francisco Nordstrom, where a sales associate suggested she just hand around the fitting room, and that staff would bring her items that fit. She loved this experience.

I just can't imagine this level of service at the Eaton Centre. Probably many reasons. But people (probably including many tourists) hoping for the Nordstrom experience didn't get all of it.

Now I do think their departure will be very hard to fill. I could imagine a grocery chain moving in to serve all the new downtown condos, but can't imagine another department store right now. Of course Canadian Tire and IKEA are on the block - another home improvement store could be a fit.

A lot of American companies simply think they can drop in the same model for selling to US to Canada, when Canada is a different enough market both in terms of size and customer behaviour.

 

[othertravel]

Lol Im in the design team

So do the tailored garments now have a full floating canvas?

 

[JohnMRobie]

So do the tailored garments now have a full floating canvas?

Seems like the best way to solve it would just be to send one of the new, improved examples that is much better to @induere_to to dissect for educational purposes and clear the Cucinelli name.

 

[CutandSew]

On a related note, Tom Ford MTM at Harry's starts at $7100 + tax. Had a bit of sticker shock.

Was this in any way related to the SA rubbing you then wrong way that posted about a little while back?

 

[CutandSew]

Good info. Any recollection on selection of sizing for bigger guys? Thanks.

The largest sizes that I recall seeing are 54 EU (44 US) for jackets and suits and I think 38 waist for trousers.

 

[othertravel]

Was this in any way related to the SA rubbing you then wrong way that posted about a little while back?

No. I found the pricing info afterwards. Although that would be a funnier story…