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The Ultimate "HARDCORE" Shoe Porn Thread (Bespoke only)

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by luk-cha, Jul 3, 2010.

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  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Well, it is a good solution to a tricky problem that originates in how you design and esp. cut your patterns. Whenever I can, I make the tongue part of the vamp. This is not cost effective but because the tongue is cut from the same leather and in the same alignment as the vamp, I have never experienced the skewing of the tongue during wear that the stitching is meant to correct. Knock on wood.

    I generally block the vamp and tongue at the same time and I'm sure that has some influence too.

    --
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  2. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Great explanations, thank you.
     
  3. Macs

    Macs Senior member

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    Here it is: http://www.styleforum.net/t/297037/sole-welting/735#post_6900215
     
  4. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Thanks, again DW. I guess this is always an issue with Oxfords (closed lace shoes). On the suede derbies I am wearing now, the tongue is part of the lake. But on wholecut plain toe derbies it is a separate piece, too. Right?

    Here is another one. Can you generalize about how suede performs differently from the usual calf as a material for sewing? Is it harder to work with? Can it be stitched as well. Any other ways it is different to work with that I haven't thought to ask? I should think it isn't any different since the underlying structure is the same, but don't know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  5. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    If I'm picturing the same shoe, it would almost have to be, wouldn't it?

    The potential is there to always be an issue although I have yet to run across it in the shoes I make ...again knock on wood. Some oxfords don't benefit from a line of stitching "parallel" to the facings, so any tongue holding stitch is somewhat incongruous.

    A customer of mine brought in a pair of Italian Blake-Rapids that had a unique solution--a loop of heavy thread positioned in the middle of the tongue. The laces went under the loop from both sides and that kept the tongue from skewing.

    Good suede is calf...full grain calf with the fleshside exposed. It doesn't perform any differently than full grain calf, grainside out. It's just harder to keep clean. i always use a shrink wrap cover before inseaming.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  6. anrobit

    anrobit Senior member

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    Wouldn't that be roughout, not suede? Suede is full grain leather that is split, with the bottom half sanded, no? Admittedly, it's an arbitrary distinction.
     
  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Not the way I learned it. Just backwards, in fact. Shoes made from splits are inferior grade and often called "rough out."

    Splits are usually taken well down in the corium. Sometimes a full grain layer and a split can be obtained from a hide.

    IIRC, A.A. Crack offers suede that is full grain. I can't remember off the top pf my head but Crack's source distinguishes between full grain suede and splits as well....and they're the one producing it.
     
  8. anrobit

    anrobit Senior member

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    The note on roughout is the opposite of everything I've heard, and also doesn't make much sense. Roughout is named so because you're taking leather and placing it with the rough (flesh) side out. Little finishing is done on the flesh side for roughouts.

    I'll have to look more into suede.
     
  9. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    [shrug]

    It might be a cultural thing. But truth to tell, I don't think any shoemaker refers to suede or suede-like leathers as "rough-out." I think that's kind of a merchandizing term. And I will admit that there's often confusion because sometimes a distinction is drawn between reverse-calf suede and suede.

    But a split is a split and that's what most manufacturers, esp. low end, are referring to when they talk about suede.

    Looking more closely at A.A. Crack, they offer a reverse suede and a suede. But they describe their suede as "more flexible and soft than other full grain leathers."

    And the source that I mentioned earlier--Charles F. Stead, who produces only "suedes" and nu-bucs and who may be one of, if not the, premier source in all the world--offers a Janus calf described as "A production of selected, young calf skins with a luxurious silky suede side and a natural full-grain, aniline reverse side. Primarily intended as a suede, the grain side should be used as trim. The handle of Janus is a touch firmer than soft." I have one of their swatch cards and almost without exception the leathers that most people would describe as "suede" have a full grain" on the backside of the swatch.

    In my experience, esp among bespoke shoemakers, "suede" always refers to full grain reverse...if only out of desperate optimism.

    I, for one, would not ever use a split for shoes. I do not think I am alone in that determination. All the strength that is inherent in the grain has gone missing.

    BTW, just because I know this thread likes pictures, here is a pair of full wellingtons made of suede...as I define it:

    [​IMG]

    --
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
    4 people like this.
  10. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Suede wellies are dangerous...
     
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    :fonz:
     
  12. damiance

    damiance Well-Known Member

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    @ ThinkDerm - pictures for you ;)

    Rendenbach soles 6 mm, pre-cut in the tannery (not from split bends)
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Cognac and white (deep inside, almost not seen) leather was used for lining
    [​IMG]


    The tongue is sewn into the lining at the inner side of a foot
    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. sstomcat

    sstomcat Senior member

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    Never seen this before, what purpose does this serve? doesn't it make it less flexible while trying to put them on and off? Awesome shoes btw.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2014
  14. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    My G&G bespoke sew in part of the tongue too. I believe it helps the tongue stay in place when you put on your shoes. I noticed once when some of the stitches ripped off, the tongue got in the way of putting on shoes and it was a little annoying. I only noticed it because the stitches on other shoe held and were easier to put on.
     
  15. damiance

    damiance Well-Known Member

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    you are right - this help the tongue to stay in place. Such solution is especially convinient in oxford shoes (can not be used in derby)
     
  16. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    The main purpose is that it keeps the tongue, which is a separate piece and may have been cut from marginal leather, from twisting and taking a "set" off center.
     
  17. jerrybrowne

    jerrybrowne Senior member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Sorry for the crappy pics.
     
    3 people like this.
  18. add911_11

    add911_11 Senior member

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    Cross Post from the Japanese shoe thread. Hello guys, I have finally managed to meet Masaru Okuyama for bespoke orders. Primarily, I have very good views about his work and it is certainly very different from my experience with Cleverley. I have confirmed that he is willing to make a seamless wholecut even if this design is not his strength. Price-wsie it is in the higher side of the ladder, but the ease of travel and his flat feet insoles win my heart. I will say his style is very flexible, amongst the fitting shoes I see many chisel toes. His measurements are the most serious kind I have seen. Next meeting in around 2 months. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
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  19. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You should post more pics of his work. How did that gunk feel in between your toes? Tell us about that.
     
  20. add911_11

    add911_11 Senior member

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    I have to find another time to take more photos since all his samples are out for photoshoot. Once I got any update from him I will let you guys know.

    It feels very comfortable when I step into the memory foam.... it a bit like something bodily soft for your first time :-D
     

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