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The Tie Dimple Debate

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by designprofessor, Jul 8, 2006.

  1. DNW

    DNW Senior member

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    It all depends. Casual suit, no dimple. Business suit, gotta have the dimple. It's pretty easy. I don't know why dimpleing is such a big deal.
     
  2. Nantucket Red

    Nantucket Red Senior member

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    I hate to be dogmatic, but I think the lack of a dimple here ruins the look completely.

    I also don't like the tie itself, but that's another story.


    Agreed. Without at dimple, the tie looks like a clip-on.

    I always thought dimpling a tie was one of those shibboleths that distinguished the high-born from the low.
     
  3. whoopee

    whoopee Senior member

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    The Charvet tie looks very modern. I was surprised when Alden "judged it closest" to the Gary Cooper tie, but I really like it myself.
     
  4. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    there is something very weird about that beard.

    i find it a little scary
     
  5. Roger

    Roger Senior member

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    The Charvet tie looks very modern. I was surprised when Alden "judged it closest" to the Gary Cooper tie, but I really like it myself.
    Since I mentioned this tie earlier, let me note that I have no evidence that it was judged "closest" to the Gary Cooper tie by anyone. My understanding is that the search for a club tie was inspired by the Gary Cooper tie. Whoopee, perhaps you have more specific information about this. Two of my acquaintances have this tie and have found it to be truly spectacular--as would be expected, I guess, in a tie designed for a special purpose and made by Charvet. However, it's not to everyone's taste, just as seeing a dimple in a tie isn't to everyone's taste. I really think that that is the bottom line here. A number of forumers have indicated that they prefer the look of a dimple. Some have said they don't. Other authorities have weighed in in other arenas. Wear a dimple if you like it. Don't if you don't like it. There's no "rule" here, just personal preference.
     
  6. Roger

    Roger Senior member

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    there is something very weird about that beard.
    i find it a little scary

    This kind of comment is really juvenile and uncalled for. The thread is about dimples in ties, for God's sake. I now very much regret showing Mr. Alden wearing what is a beautiful tie in a very tasteful manner, in order to make a small point about how a tie can look very elegant without a dimple, and how this view is shared by a man with truly impeccable taste and style. I have removed my earlier picture and reference.

    M@t, get a grip. If someone photographed you out of context this way, with part of your chin showing and down to the middle of your chest, you might look pretty "weird" too. And I can assure you that if you grow up to look half as distinguished as Mr. Alden, you will be able to count yourself lucky.
     
  7. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    The Duke of Windsor had custom made ties and very rarely wore them without a dimple for a spot of difference. The Duke of Windsor changed the way men wore clothes, Im not sure the other two guys mentioned will have the same lasting effect.

    The Charvet necktie makes one of the most beautiful dimples in the tie universe and it is especially curious that one would eschew dimpling it.

    Here is my take on the reasons someone should dimple their necktie. It also has some suggestions on tying your tie in general. Additionally, that 85 ways to tie your necktie is a great book.

    http://www.filmnoirbuff.com/article/the-art-of-tie-chi
     
  8. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It's absolutely not as one-sided as the previous posts would suggest. Some like the look of the dimple--perhaps even the majority these days--but that could just be fashion as opposed to style. Others who have reached a certain level of maturity in their own personal style choose not to dimple. It's much like the choice to wear or eschew tie clasps. Although current fashion may argue against wearing tie clasps, experienced and confident men may choose to do so. It's worth noting that the redoubtable Manton indicates in his recent book that to dimple or not should be seen as a personal choice--with no clear sartorial precept supporting either choice--and no less an authority than the Duke of Windsor chose not to. In addition, the founder of the London Lounge, Michael Alden, doesn't seem to consider a dimple part of good style, as the following picture shows (Mr. Alden is modeling the London Lounge Club Tie, a spectacular Charvet). If no dimple works for these guys, it's sure as hell worth considering. In the end, it's purely personal preference, and when it comes to that, it never hurts to be in the knowing, but stylish, minority. [​IMG]

    BTW, how often does this topic come up each year? Four, five times? The question can be easily answered: it's purely personal preference. If you're insecure, perhaps you should be sure to dimple. If not, do whatever you think looks best.



    I tie my tie and look to see if I am pleased with it. If I like it and it has a dimple... fine. If I like it and it does not... also fine. If I do not like the way it looks, I retie.

    While people may or may not prefer the way that Alden's tie is tied (I am on the fence myself), there is no doubting that the entire ensemble is truly pleasing. To me, one of the best things about it is how discreet yet natural the pocket square is. It is a gar cry from the flaming bright silks that many prefer when they are trying for elegance.
     
  9. Roger

    Roger Senior member

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    Here is my take on the reasons someone should dimple their necktie. It also has some suggestions on tying your tie in general. Additionally, that 85 ways to tie your necktie is a great book.
    For some reason the print is very faint on the page you directed us to--at least on my monitor. It is essentially unreadable.
     
  10. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    For some reason the print is very faint on the page you directed us to--at least on my monitor. It is essentially unreadable.

    Interesting, Roger. Sorry about that.

    Hmm, I clicked on it and it's working for me.

    If other people are having the same trouble, please let me know. I will take a look at it from my end.
     
  11. Roger

    Roger Senior member

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    The Duke of Windsor had custom made ties and very rarely wore them without a dimple for a spot of difference.
    FNB, for the record, here's the quote about the Duke of Windsor from Manton's book:

    "Most men contrive their knots so that there is a small dimple in the center of the tie just below the knot, which helps the front blade drape properly. Others believe that dimples smack of too much artifice and follow the duke in favoring a soft, dimpleless rounded knot, which is actually harder to tie." (Italics mine.)
     
  12. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    While people may or may not prefer the way that Alden's tie is tied (I am on the fence myself)
    The way Alden has tied his tie in that picture is deliberate and requires a bit of effort and practice. It's not as simple as it looks. For a historical reference, see the duke of Windsor's second volume of memoirs, especially pp. 153 and 212. The second picture is particularly nice. It was one of the things that inspired me to rethink my affection for dimples, and return to my youth, as it were, when I was not so obsessive about dimples.
     
  13. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    FNB, for the record, here's the quote about the Duke of Windsor from Manton's book:

    "Most men contrive their knots so that there is a small dimple in the center of the tie just below the knot, which helps the front blade drape properly. Others believe that dimples smack of too much artifice and follow the duke in favoring a soft, dimpleless rounded knot, which is actually harder to tie." (Italics mine.)


    If one wants to talk about normative behavior with tie knots they should begin with this premise. Most men do not know how to tie a tie with a dimple and look sloppy without one. Maybe some have learned to dimple well and have chosen to eschew the dimple as a statement. I have one well dressed friend who does this. He happens to know what he is doing, so yes, it looks natural on his person. Advice that the dimple is contrived seems very self serving to me. On the one hand, if you do not know how to tie a dimple, then this is irresponsible bravado in my opinion. If you do know how to dimple your tie, then it hardly needs be said to you that you can choose not to dimple.

    A dimple is no more of a contrivance than tying your shoelaces. Maybe some prefer to follow the carefree lead of the Old Dodger's Bum illustrations and leave their laces undone, in true liberated cavalier esprit.

    Also, there aren't a lot of photos Ive seen with the Duke in "dimplelessness" until his last years of life. He looked good without a Dimple (his dimpleless ties are very carefully arranged) but I doubt if he believed a dimple was an artifice. Also, he was an original. OK, maybe that's the lead we're speaking about but I think of the Duke as fully dimpled.

    This example of a non-dimpled tie is not good because it draws your attention to it too much, as if something is wrong or missing. Hardly the pleasing effect the DUke achieved when he did it from time to time.
     
  14. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    The way Alden has tied his tie in that picture is deliberate and requires a bit of effort and practice. It's not as simple as it looks. For a historical reference, see the duke of Windsor's second volume of memoirs, especially pp. 153 and 212. The second picture is particularly nice. It was one of the things that inspired me to rethink my affection for dimples, and return to my youth, as it were, when I was not so obsessive about dimples.
    I am sure that you are correct. The picture had the same effect on me of rethinking how important a dimple is. My only bone to pick with the knot is that for a non-dimpled knot, I think that the knot should be a touch wider at the bottom. I like one that is almost cylindrical rather than cone shaped.
     
  15. Jovan

    Jovan Senior member

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    Roger, I think you took m@t's comment way too personally.
     
  16. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    My only bone to pick with the knot is that for a non-dimpled knot, I think that the knot should be a touch wider at the bottom. I like one that is almost cylindrical rather than cone shaped.
    You mean more like this?

    [​IMG]

    This picture also made me rethink my opposition to double-soled blucher wholecuts with lounge suits. Note also the link cuff. Maybe Kabbaz can use this shot in one of his mailers.
     
  17. Roger

    Roger Senior member

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    Advice that the dimple is contrived seems very self serving to me. On the one hand, if you do not know how to tie a dimple, then this is irresponsible bravado in my opinion. ...
    A dimple is no more of a contrivance than tying your shoelaces.

    To say, as Manton did, that "Most men contrive their knots so that there is a small dimple...." (Italics mine), is hardly the same thing as characterizing the dimple as a contrivance in the negative sense you seem to be suggesting here--artificial, odd, or scheming, or whatever it is you are suggesting. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, to contrive means: "to form or create in an artistic or ingenious manner." You also are overlooking the style in which The Suit was written--that of Macchiavelli in The Prince. Adherence to this style (the reasons for which have been amply provided elsewhere) accounts for vocabulary and sentences like the one quoted. The sentence, taken literally, simply says that most men try to create artistically-pleasing knots with a dimple, and how that can be seen as self-serving escapes me completely.

    This example of a non-dimpled tie is not good because it draws your attention to it too much, as if something is wrong or missing. Hardly the pleasing effect the DUke achieved when he did it from time to time.
    Couldn't it just as easily be said that the dimple in a tie might draw others' attention to it in a way that could cause them to miss the more important aspects of the tie?
     
  18. Jovan

    Jovan Senior member

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    Although I usually dimple, I think it depends what kind of knot you do that'll make it look fine without. The one that gentleman is sporting looks quite dashing, as does the rest of his outfit.
     
  19. Roger

    Roger Senior member

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    Roger, I think you took m@t's comment way too personally.
    It's not my person that is being attacked. I feel badly for someone else, or, perhaps more accurately, some guilt for having exposed that person to comments like m@t's.
     
  20. Jovan

    Jovan Senior member

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    I realize that. However, it's just a forum.

    EDIT: Can someone just ban this "flyers" gent and get it over with?
     

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