The Tailors' Thread: Fit Feedback and Alteration Suggestions

[Despos]

Hi everyone,

Been refining my MtM pattern, and I'm wondering if anyone can advise on some creasing/breaking on the right hand side by my armpit. I think it's possibly to do with my dropped shoulder, although I think I also have forward shoulders, so that may contribute. It's not that easy to photograph, and does look worse in real life. Also, possibly some sleeve pitch issues? Hopefully Despos may have some insight! I've put a main picture in, and attached quite a few, including some without the jacket in case it helps with figuration etc. At the moment, I have both my shoulders set to slightly square, and also slight forward shoulder, as well as a slightly prominent chest. Any other fit advice/critique welcome too!

Ps. Please ignore the styling, it's just a test garment for fit and to try out various different styling options (I would not actually order a worsted 3r2 wide peak lapel with patch pockets currently).

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Spoiler

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If I understand your comments, this jacket was sent to you to analyze the fit so you can place an order? The jacket is not made from your measurements?
Your shoulders are difficult to fit. Do you take an over arm and a chest measurement? Curious what those two measurements are.
The shoulders on this jacket aren’t cut square enough and the armhole shape is distorted. You need the armhole wider front to back by scooping out the front of the armhole. When I make a jacket pattern the angle and amount of curve of the armhole changes according the chest shape and depth. It requires crooking or straightening the shoulder to adjust the line of the armhole. Then adjust the sleeve to fit into the armhole.This isn’t something easily done or communicated on a MTM jacket.
If the shoulder slope is cut right and the shape of the armhole is correct for the shape of your chest and back, you won’t have this issue.
Only way I know how to answer because when I look to alter something I try to see how I would adjust the cutting if I was making it.

 

[CorozoButton]

If I understand your comments, this jacket was sent to you to analyze the fit so you can place an order? The jacket is not made from your measurements?
Your shoulders are difficult to fit. Do you take an over arm and a chest measurement? Curious what those two measurements are.
The shoulders on this jacket aren’t cut square enough and the armhole shape is distorted. You need the armhole wider front to back by scooping out the front of the armhole. When I make a jacket pattern the angle and amount of curve of the armhole changes according the chest shape and depth. It requires crooking or straightening the shoulder to adjust the line of the armhole. Then adjust the sleeve to fit into the armhole.This isn’t something easily done or communicated on a MTM jacket.
If the shoulder slope is cut right and the shape of the armhole is correct for the shape of your chest and back, you won’t have this issue.
Only way I know how to answer because when I look to alter something I try to see how I would adjust the cutting if I was making it.

Thanks Chris for the detailed reply. Always fascinating and helpful.

So, it's a bit of an unusual situation. I'm working direct with an MtM factory (opposed to through a vendor/middleman). This jacket was made from measurements I provided, but was done in a very cheap house fabric. It's essentially a finished garment, but used as a toile fit. I did not provide body measurements, but rather garment measurements based on existing clothing that I feel fits me well. The chest is 104cm/40.95" around. I'm not entirely sure what an over arm measurement is (is it putting the tape measure under your armpit and over your shoulder). I requested the armhole be 1cm higher than their standard pattern would provide.

It's interesting that you say the shoulders aren't cut square enough. I find so much of tailoring to be a bit counter-intuitive to the layman like myself. For me, the shoulders both being cut with the same amount of slope, but the issue being on my dropped shoulder would suggest that the issue is the shoulder being cut too square, if that makes sense? The other reason I thought it was the right not being cut sloped enough is that if I put a waistcoat on with no shirt underneath, there seems to be a bit of a gap between my right shoulder and the top of the fabric. The crease also goes away if I lift my shoulder slightly, but I figure that may just be me stretching the fabric? Then again, I have no doubt that you're seeing issues that I haven't even realised yet!

There are figuration options that I've used. I've said I'm 'Slight Forward' front shoulder like so:

Also 'Slight Chest Out':

I also selected inner shoulder blade higher than normal (as they do massive protrude on me):

I feel that the slight chest out may be wrong, and I should have selected Slight Forward Head, which I did not:

 

[Despos]

Not sure how much i can help you here.
Chest measurement is taken under the arms/over the fullest part of the chest. Overarm measure is taken around/over both arms at the fullest part of the chest. The difference between those two measurements help to determine the armhole.
When you have a low shoulder, each shoulder will have a different slope. The reason you see this issue on the right side more than the left is because the breast pocket is filling in and supporting the chest on the left side.
The shoulder line, chest and armhole look off to my eye. The upper chest of the jacket is too small/narrow and the lapels bow like this ( ) instead of V. You need more chest in this jacket. The shoulder line is convex and doesn’t seem to sit naturally on your shoulders. You do not have head forward so don’t change that adjustment.
This maker has their own terminology and I would consult them. I see weird angles and ideas in this cut but I don’t know how it arrived at this point and may not be providing the best information to resolve this. MTM factory uses methods differently than I would.
How many jackets have you tried to get this far.

 

[CorozoButton]

Not sure how much i can help you here.
Chest measurement is taken under the arms/over the fullest part of the chest. Overarm measure is taken around/over both arms at the fullest part of the chest. The difference between those two measurements help to determine the armhole.
When you have a low shoulder, each shoulder will have a different slope. The reason you see this issue on the right side more than the left is because the breast pocket is filling in and supporting the chest on the left side.
The shoulder line, chest and armhole look off to my eye. The upper chest of the jacket is too small/narrow and the lapels bow like this ( ) instead of V. You need more chest in this jacket. The shoulder line is convex and doesn’t seem to sit naturally on your shoulders. You do not have head forward so don’t change that adjustment.
This maker has their own terminology and I would consult them. I see weird angles and ideas in this cut but I don’t know how it arrived at this point and may not be providing the best information to resolve this. MTM factory uses methods differently than I would.
How many jackets have you tried to get this far.

I completely understand. I do seem to have much wider shoulders than someone of my chest measurement usually does, which has always given me problems with RTW.

The chest definitely doesn't feel tight at all, and feels like it has room. Maybe I'm just not used to how a proper cut should feel though? I never noticed the lapel bowing, I thought that was just the style (almost like intentional belly on the inside of the lapel), but I think I see what you mean. The shoulders are completely unpadded, which may explain some of the convex look, as I think that's how my shoulders naturally are? Maybe the photos without the jacket shows that, or maybe I'm just completely wrong! Obviously I have no expertise here.

I know it's incredibly reductive, but I know of really simple, fallible markers of fit issues (breaking lines showing not enough slope, collar roll meaning not enough squareness). I saw breaking and no roll, so just assumed the issue was not enough slope in the right. I then do what many people do, and try and see what I can change about my posture to alleviate the issues. In this case, raising my right shoulder slightly did it, but I understand why this method wouldn't really tell me the truth.

This is after about 3 jackets or so. Honestly, I didn't think the fit was that bad at this point, but I'm aware coming to SF will result in details being pointed out that I wasn't aware of before (all part of the learning process).

In your opinion, does the fit look pretty bad for MtM?

I appreciate all the input though, obviously not knowing how the factory works, the terminology they use, or how they adjust patterns based on selected figuration realistically makes it impossible for you to make practical suggestions.

 

[Despos]

The jacket looks pretty good.
At one point I think you had the sleeves rotated to clean up the back of the sleeves. Is this so?
The chest and armhole just look off to me and may be from adjustments made.
The shoulder is a combination of cutting and their sewing technique.

 

[CorozoButton]

The jacket looks pretty good.
At one point I think you had the sleeves rotated to clean up the back of the sleeves. Is this so?
The chest and armhole just look off to me and may be from adjustments made.
The shoulder is a combination of cutting and their sewing technique.

Indeed - There's a figuration option for sleeve pitch. On this jacket I had 'Curved Arm', although I had tried 'Very Arms Forward' in the past, which seemed to work just as well, if not slightly better:

From the photos I provided, would you consider me to have forward/rounded shoulders? As mentioned earlier, I had 'Slight Forward' selected. I find figuration very difficult. Sometimes I look at pictures of myself, or in a mirror, and I really can't make out anything from it! Could always provide more photos. I may even be very forward?

The jacket is actually very comfortable. Doesn't feel tight anywhere, and doesn't feel like I'm drowning in fabric. The issues are aesthetic opposed to any tactile element.

It's definitely been a trial and error process, and fairly enjoyable in many ways!

Ps. I'm in the UK, but surely it must be absurdly early where you are?

Thanks again!

 

[1up]

I just received a MTM shirt but realize I forgot to change some specifications from a previous shirt, and left a pocket on the front. I don't particularly like pockets unless it's a buttondown.

How difficult is it to remove from a shirt? Easy fix at my tailors, or should I opt to do it myself?

 

[gianm]

Assuming this was made for you. Was anything altered after the jacket was finished? The angle of the wrinkles is puzzling as to what is the cause. Maybe a side view would help and your answer if it was altered after the last fitting

The jacket is actually RTW from Ring Jacket and hasn't been altered yet. The curve in the back and my seat seem to be the culprit. Here are the front, side and back (unbuttoned) views.

 

[Despos]

Issue is minimal on this new picture of the back. Looks like the wrinkles are caused from the taper in the jacket hitting on the top of your hips. If your style is to wear the jacket unbuttoned, nothing needs to be done. If you keep it buttoned, let out at the top of the side vents. Start at the most tapered point at the waist down thru the vent. Not much can be done how the tail of the back shoots out over your seat but reshaping on the sides will help

 

[gianm]

Issue is minimal on this new picture of the back. Looks like the wrinkles are caused from the taper in the jacket hitting on the top of your hips. If your style is to wear the jacket unbuttoned, nothing needs to be done. If you keep it buttoned, let out at the top of the side vents. Start at the most tapered point at the waist down thru the vent. Not much can be done how the tail of the back shoots out over your seat but reshaping on the sides will help

Thanks for the feedback! Always appreciated.

 

[CorozoButton]

@Despos
Apologies if you're seeing this just before/after you're eating, but I've attached a couple of pics to try and determine figuration. Do you have any ideas about how you would class my shoulders (forward/rounded etc)?
Spoiler out of courtesy for everyone.

Spoiler

Thanks again!

 

[Despos]

You have very square shoulders. The slope has to accommodate the bump towards the end of your shoulder not the tip/farthest point of your shoulder. That’s why you need the shoulder cut higher at the shoulder point. Normal approach to square shoulders is to lower the point at the neck. You need more length over the end of your shoulders so the shoulder line should be raised. Don’t try to get too high of an armhole. Doesn’t work well with your shoulder/chest shapes.

 

[CorozoButton]

You have very square shoulders. The slope has to accommodate the bump towards the end of your shoulder not the tip/farthest point of your shoulder. That’s why you need the shoulder cut higher at the shoulder point. Normal approach to square shoulders is to lower the point at the neck. You need more length over the end of your shoulders so the shoulder line should be raised. Don’t try to get too high of an armhole. Doesn’t work well with your shoulder/chest shapes.

Thanks, absolutely fascinating. So if I understand this correctly, the ideal situation is to cut for square shoulders, but to do it by raising the shoulder end, opposed to lowering the neck end? This will probably sound very foolish, but, if this is not possible, could combining the standard practise of squaring shoulders by lowering the point at the neck on the pattern, and then raising the back of the collar on the pattern achieve something similar?

 

[Despos]

Your shoulders are very square. Best to lower at the neck and raise the the shoulder point. Picture the center of your shoulder as the fulcrum on a teeter totter. Why do you say raise the collar?

 

[CorozoButton]

Your shoulders are very square. Best to lower at the neck and raise the the shoulder point. Picture the center of your shoulder as the fulcrum on a teeter totter. Why do you say raise the collar?

I think I'm possibly being a bit dim.

My thinking was that when you said 'That’s why you need the shoulder cut higher at the shoulder point. Normal approach to square shoulders is to lower the point at the neck'. Being a MtM company, I would imagine they adjust for square shoulders using the 'normal approach', so they would lower the neck to make the shoulder line more square. By raising the collar, it would be similar to having the 'Shoulder cut higher at the shoulder point'. Although, now I read that back to myself, that might just bring me right back to the beginning. I think I've got it completely wrong here!

I think I thought raising the collar would be the same as raising the neck point.

@Despos Edit: I re-read your responses, and I think I'm finally clear on what you're saying - sorry it took so long! I thought you meant just to raise the shoulder, but without lowering the point at the neck, but I believe you're saying do both: