The Styleforum x Archibald Hand-Welted Dress Shoes GMTO

[stephenaf2003]

I already replied to exactly this before. You can just re-read my previous post, nothing stated there that change that.

"[...] because our copy says we use good leathers which means we don't and finally because you dont THINK it is possible for us to sell a shoe of the calibre we claim at the price we do". Could you please stop putting things in my mouth that I have never said? Please?



If you, and others, would actually take the time to read what I have written about the brand (not the persons behind it, bear in mind) and their shoes (based on photos), both on the blog and here on SF, it's mainly positive things, as I said before it's like 95% positive things. Which is why it's so hilarious to read all these comments where it seems like I have written down the **** of Archibald, in the same way as the sensible ArchibaldRoh do about me and my blog and the way you do about me here. I hope you are very pleased with your analogy.

Ok, you’re making assumptions. I did read your article, and you’re right, most of what you said was fair. However the fact that you don’t understand how, that throw away remark you made about the leather quality, to a company attempting to achieve what Archibald has set out for, is really damaging. Suggests one’s either daft, or insincere.

To be fair, I’m making assumptions too. I don’t understand how reviewing a product, using only photos, are a good thing. You’ve obviously made a good career based in part on reviewing products. So my sincere question, which I should have asked without assuming it’s bad, before hearing your rationale is: what are the advantages of reviewing product with photos, as opposed to, having the product in hand? It seems counterintuitive to me, but perhaps you have good reasons.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

@j ingevaldsson @ArchibaldRoh come on guys, let's get along here. Jesper, I have read your blog now and then and I appreciate it, I like TLB and have very good experiences buying from Skolyx, I have even recommended them in the past. Rohan, I bought several things from your brand, do believe you deliver what you promise, love the concept and you guys are a pleasure to deal with.

I think any other customer that has treated with you both will agree with me on this. Now, come on, let's make something productive for everybody out of this. You both have your reasons to say and do what you say and do. I don't think there is a need to get any more personal. Maybe Jesper could indeed buy a pair of shoes from Archibald and write up a review, or maybe not. He says anyway he has never had any shoes from them, so if he thinks the leather quality might not be the best, it does not mean it is the case. Maybe you could reach a friendly agreement for reviewing a pair or anything productive. I do understand Rohan could get offended after all the personal effort put into getting the best things possible. Just let's try to value what each of you guys has to offer, we customers already do.

Cheers

PD: we can all agree that Horween is the best shell there is, right? We can start with that . A big shout-out to Shinki and Rocado for providing a cheaper, different alternative, though. The translucence of Shinki and the many colors of Rocado are also nice to have, even if I think Horween just feels overall better.

Thanks for the kind words about the blog and Skolyx!

That was actually how it started, that they reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to do a review. I said no thanks, I’m already way behind on reviewing pairs received before (not sure if they got angry with me declining the offer, if that has anything to do with it), and then have them a link to the article to just let them know I had highlighted the brand on the blog. Then it all started...

As I’ve said, I have not bashed the quality of Archibald’s leather, I wrote that from picture it looks as it perhaps wasn’t the best but that you couldn’t expect perfect leather on shoes at this price range (be them hand welted or not hand welted etc, one could just leave all that as well if one like). It seems that if I don’t agree that they have as good leathers as brands like EG, G&G etc. then I’m just a fake fraud asshole with a ****** unbiased unprofessional blog, so think it’s just better to leave it all as is.

Either way, good you are pleased with their shoes then! If you own pairs from brands like EG, G&G etc, do you believe it’s on pair with those?

Ok, you’re making assumptions. I did read your article, and you’re right, most of what you said was fair. However the fact that you don’t understand how, that throw away remark you made about the leather quality, to a company attempting to achieve what Archibald has set out for, is really damaging. Suggests one’s either daft, or insincere.

To be fair, I’m making assumptions too. I don’t understand how reviewing a product, using only photos, are a good thing. You’ve obviously made a good career based in part on reviewing products. So my sincere question, which I should have asked without assuming it’s bad, before hearing your rationale is: what are the advantages of reviewing product with photos, as opposed to, having the product in hand? It seems counterintuitive to me, but perhaps you have good reasons.

I’m sorry but to me it’s not a harsh writing at all, maybe it’s that I’m not native English speaking that I can’t see it, or that I know what I mean with it (which I thought would be understandable for all when you read the whole part and not just those few words about the leather).

I don’t know where all this writing a “review” comes from? That’s what the Archibald folks talked about as well. I wrote an article highlighting their good offer campaign, where I briefly summarised my impression of the shoes based on pics. It’s not a review, it’s not claiming to be a review, it’s claiming to be what it is, just that, a “brief summary of my impression of the shoes based on pics” (which is something I write all the time on the blog, if I don’t I get questions about just that, “my impressions of the brand in question from what I have to base it of”, and if I have others opinions and/or general reputation I usually include those as well, in this case I had never heard anyone owning shoes from them talk about the brand).

It has nothing to do with a proper review, and it is never presented as being so. If you want to read my proper reviews, go here. Those are reviews. That above was not, never has been, never will be.

 

[stephenaf2003]

Thanks for the kind words about the blog and Skolyx!

That was actually how it started, that they reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to do a review. I said no thanks, I’m already way behind on reviewing pairs received before (not sure if they got angry with me declining the offer, if that has anything to do with it), and then have them a link to the article to just let them know I had highlighted the brand on the blog. Then it all started...

As I’ve said numerous times, I have not bashed the quality of Archibald’s leather, I wrote that from picture it looks as it perhaps wasn’t the best but that you couldn’t expect perfect leather on shoes at this price range (be them hand welted or not hand welted etc, one could just leave all that as well if one like). It seems that if I don’t agree that they have as good leathers as brands like EG, G&G etc. then I’m just a fake fraud asshole with a ****** unbiased unprofessional blog, so think it’s just better to leave it all as is.



I’m sorry but to me it’s not a harsh writing at all, maybe it’s that I’m not native English speaking that I can’t see it, or that I know what I mean with it (which I thought would be understandable for all when you read the whole part and not just those few words about the leather).

I don’t know where all this writing a “review” comes from? That’s what the Archibald folks talked about as well. I wrote an article highlighting their good offer campaign, where I briefly summarised my impression of the shoes based on pics. It’s not a review, it’s not claiming to be a review, it’s claiming to be what it is, just that, a “brief summary of my impression of the shoes based on pics” (which is something I write all the time on the blog, if I don’t I get questions about just that, “my impressions of the brand in question from what I have to base it of”).

It has nothing to do with a proper review, and it is never presented as being so. If you want to read my proper reviews, go here. Those are reviews. That above was not, never has been, never will be.

Ahh, I see. I was wrong about the review part, and this does clear it up. It seemed written like many reviews are these days, so that’s why I mistakenly thought it was. I am a subscriber to your blog, and have read many of your reviews/musings.

It’s easy when communicating over the web for things to get testy very quickly.
That said, the comment on the leather quality kind of reminds me of an issue businesses have here in the USA on the review app called Yelp. One person can say a negative thing on Yelp, and a business has to scramble to do damage control from that one persons words. Words do have power.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Ahh, I see. I was wrong about the review part, and this does clear it up. It seemed written like many reviews are these days, so that’s why I mistakenly thought it was. I am a subscriber to your blog, and have read many of your reviews/musings.

It’s easy when communicating over the web for things to get testy very quickly.
That said, the comment on the leather quality kind of reminds me of an issue businesses have here in the USA on the review app called Yelp. One person can say a negative thing on Yelp, and a business has to scramble to do damage control from that one persons words. Words do have power.

Thanks for understanding that!

Yup, writing online is not an ideal way of communicating for sure.

 

[EgoCamisas]

Thanks for the kind words about the blog and Skolyx!

That was actually how it started, that they reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to do a review. I said no thanks, I’m already way behind on reviewing pairs received before (not sure if they got angry with me declining the offer, if that has anything to do with it), and then have them a link to the article to just let them know I had highlighted the brand on the blog. Then it all started...

As I’ve said, I have not bashed the quality of Archibald’s leather, I wrote that from picture it looks as it perhaps wasn’t the best but that you couldn’t expect perfect leather on shoes at this price range (be them hand welted or not hand welted etc, one could just leave all that as well if one like). It seems that if I don’t agree that they have as good leathers as brands like EG, G&G etc. then I’m just a fake fraud asshole with a ****** unbiased unprofessional blog, so think it’s just better to leave it all as is.

Either way, good you are pleased with their shoes then! If you own pairs from brands like EG, G&G etc, do you believe it’s on pair with those?

Well, it's a shame. I would have indeed liked a review from you.

I can understand, however, that the guys at Archibald might get emotional over that after having invested themselves personally into finding what they deem the very best. After all, you don't know how their leather really is, either. I can vouch for the quality of some of their other products; shoes, however, I still don't have, so I can't tell whether they are on pair with them or not. I am still on the fence for the HW-01, so that might change relatively soon. Nevertheless, it wouldn't strike me if they were on pair with EG or G&G, but I can't tell yet. I mean, their leather is excellent, but it's not like they get leather from another planet so, until proved wrong, I cannot know. As we say in Germany, "everybody boils with water".

Cheers

 

[boot_owl]

Thanks for the kind words about the blog and Skolyx!

That was actually how it started, that they reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to do a review. I said no thanks, I’m already way behind on reviewing pairs received before (not sure if they got angry with me declining the offer, if that has anything to do with it), and then have them a link to the article to just let them know I had highlighted the brand on the blog. Then it all started...

As I’ve said, I have not bashed the quality of Archibald’s leather, I wrote that from picture it looks as it perhaps wasn’t the best but that you couldn’t expect perfect leather on shoes at this price range (be them hand welted or not hand welted etc, one could just leave all that as well if one like). It seems that if I don’t agree that they have as good leathers as brands like EG, G&G etc. then I’m just a fake fraud asshole with a ****** unbiased unprofessional blog, so think it’s just better to leave it all as is.

Either way, good you are pleased with their shoes then! If you own pairs from brands like EG, G&G etc, do you believe it’s on pair with those?



I’m sorry but to me it’s not a harsh writing at all, maybe it’s that I’m not native English speaking that I can’t see it, or that I know what I mean with it (which I thought would be understandable for all when you read the whole part and not just those few words about the leather).

I don’t know where all this writing a “review” comes from? That’s what the Archibald folks talked about as well. I wrote an article highlighting their good offer campaign, where I briefly summarised my impression of the shoes based on pics. It’s not a review, it’s not claiming to be a review, it’s claiming to be what it is, just that, a “brief summary of my impression of the shoes based on pics” (which is something I write all the time on the blog, if I don’t I get questions about just that, “my impressions of the brand in question from what I have to base it of”, and if I have others opinions and/or general reputation I usually include those as well, in this case I had never heard anyone owning shoes from them talk about the brand).

It has nothing to do with a proper review, and it is never presented as being so. If you want to read my proper reviews, go here. Those are reviews. That above was not, never has been, never will be.

I believe the big part of why this write up grates upon the Archibald team is because they consider it their mission to start with the best product and sell it at the lowest price, without actually looking for ways to reduce production cost (only margin/marketing). Whether they succeed I have not determined, but they have said several times in the sneaker thread that they hope for their products to be reviewed as the best quality product period, rather than the best quality at a specific price point.

‘Have never seen them in real life but they look ok, not super refined, and the leather might not be the best there is. But with the RRP of €450 for an Italian-made hand welted shoe, you can’t expect too much. And you can get them at only €290, a 35% discount, and that price tag for a European-made hand welted shoe is very rare.’

While I agree this isn’t a particularly negative comment, it feels like Archibald is being placed in a ‘value for money’ segment rather than ‘quality’. I suppose it would be like if you said you were giving away a pair of your main d’or shoes to charity, and people said not much could be expected of main d’or if it’s being given away for free. Not guaranteed to be inaccurate, but still an unfair characterization for not having been handled.

 

[deliku]

This is quite shocking to see. A representative of a brand I love openly attacking another brand I’ve been interested in. And in their own thread no less!

 

[ArchibaldRoh]

This is quite shocking to see. A representative of a brand I love openly attacking another brand I’ve been interested in. And in their own thread no less!

To be fair, I did post the article he had written into our thread and asked the community if he happened to be on the forum.

Again, my only point is if you are going to challenge a claim a company makes or make a comment about x or y and pride yourself as a product journalist providing their community with honest and impartial reviews then at the very least examine the item in real life before doing so.

The quack keeps focussing on my being upset or taking it personally because he said something negative but I am not. Ultimately if someone decides to order something they can always decipher it for themselves and if unhappy or feel like we aren't quite what we say we are, return the item. I am simply calling him out on his process and questioning his approach to conclusions and journalism.

His lack of objectivity is further illustrated by his insistence that our business model is not possible if we really did whst we say we do. This without once handling a single product we sell.

I use an example of the vicuna scarf to highlight how no one does what we do...and point to real journalism in the WSJ. His answer does not focus on the fact Vicuna costs a lot of money and it is true no brand in the world is selling it at less than a multiple of our prices, but instead his come-back is simply the WSJ has featured other brands making claims. But the fact is I purposelly chose an item which you can't mess around with, 100 percent vicuna is 100 percent vicuna.

The guy lacks logic, has no process, claims to be able to gain tactile insight from pictures and make comments about materials from them and is simply a quack. Oh and refuses to take a challenge and review the shoes in real life even though once he does he can really say whatever he wants and I have nothing I can say in return because once again I have no issue with a negative comment or a total annhilation of product, I have issue with this quack parading around like an impartial real journalist when he is simply a quack poser protecting self interest and some ad revenue.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

To be fair, I did post the article he had written into our thread and asked the community if he happened to be on the forum.

Again, my only point is if you are going to challenge a claim a company makes or make a comment about x or y and pride yourself as a product journalist providing their community with honest and impartial reviews then at the very least examine the item in real life before doing so.

The quack keeps focussing on my being upset or taking it personally because he said something negative but I am not. Ultimately if someone decides to order something they can always decipher it for themselves and if unhappy or feel like we aren't quite what we say we are, return the item. I am simply calling him out on his process and questioning his approach to conclusions and journalism.

His lack of objectivity is further illustrated by his insistence that our business model is not possible if we really did whst we say we do. This without once handling a single product we sell.

I use an example of the vicuna scarf to highlight how no one does what we do...and point to real journalism in the WSJ. His answer does not focus on the fact Vicuna costs a lot of money and it is true no brand in the world is selling it at less than a multiple of our prices, but instead his come-back is simply the WSJ has featured other brands making claims. But the fact is I purposelly chose an item which you can't mess around with, 100 percent vicuna is 100 percent vicuna.

The guy lacks logic, has no process, claims to be able to gain tactile insight from pictures and make comments about materials from them and is simply a quack. Oh and refuses to take a challenge and review the shoes in real life even though once he does he can really say whatever he wants and I have nothing I can say in return because once again I have no issue with a negative comment or a total annhilation of product, I have issue with this quack parading around like an impartial real journalist when he is simply a quack poser protecting self interest and some ad revenue.

Wow. I hope that people can see how you are treating others. I really hope you take better care of customers of yours if they would come back with a negative experience or have some problems with any of your products. If they don’t agree with your view of the world.
I will leave this thread and I hope that I will never have to have anything to do with you ever again. I was hoping to get actual responses to what I wrote, as promised, but I give up on that.

I end with quoting myself: “I wrote an article highlighting their good offer campaign, where I briefly summarised my impression of the shoes based on pics. It’s not a review, it’s not claiming to be a review, it’s claiming to be what it is, just that, a “brief summary of my impression of the shoes based on pics” (which is something I write all the time on the blog, if I don’t I get questions about just that, “my impressions of the brand in question from what I have to base it of”, and if I have others opinions and/or general reputation I usually include those as well, in this case I had never heard anyone owning shoes from them talk about the brand).”

 

[ArchibaldRoh]

Wow. I hope that people can see how you are treating others. I really hope you take better care of customers of yours if they would come back with a negative experience or have some problems with any of your products. If they don’t agree with your view of the world.
I will leave this thread and I hope that I will never have to have anything to do with you ever again. I was hoping to get actual responses to what I wrote, as promised, but I give up on that.

I end with quoting myself: “I wrote an article highlighting their good offer campaign, where I briefly summarised my impression of the shoes based on pics. It’s not a review, it’s not claiming to be a review, it’s claiming to be what it is, just that, a “brief summary of my impression of the shoes based on pics” (which is something I write all the time on the blog, if I don’t I get questions about just that, “my impressions of the brand in question from what I have to base it of”, and if I have others opinions and/or general reputation I usually include those as well, in this case I had never heard anyone owning shoes from them talk about the brand).”

I relish negative feedback from our customers because they have a lot to offer hence we have had 5 versions of our ghirlandina, 2 of which were disasters relatively speaking. There is also the big difference is they have the right to say something negatice because they received product.

You are missing the point and keep saying you qualified your statement in your blog but you jumped on the forum abad backed your view gained from pictures video and copy

Lets highlight the immaturity:
My name is shoegazing and i write a blog about shoes so I can share my expert opinion with my community. I made claims about a brands shoes, their leather, their offering (a brand based on a disruptive business model claiming to sell shoes worth a lot more than 450, is actually selling shoes worth 450) and I have never even seen, felt nor been close to someone who has examined the actual product.

My arguments:
1. I can tell a lot from a picture
- you are special.

2. Your video shows shortcuts been taken.
- again doesnt tell half the story.

3. Even you telling me where you buy the leather doesnt mean anything as we know brands have first pick.
-Do you know that we pay more than those brands to achieve it? Are you aware that at times we purchase our quanitity on the back of a reputable heritage brand and that is why our offering is somewhat limited? One could investigate or judge by SIMPLY TOUCHING THE PRODUCT.

4. The economics of your model are simply not possible.
- that is why we think we are special but you know you could have said hey send me a shoe and maybe ill re-evaluate or maybe it will confirm my suspicioun.

Of course you want nothing to do with it because for once a brand has called you out as a quack and instead of admitting that perhaps you were wrong in making judgment without experiecing product, you dig a bigger hole for yourself. That is what the user was saying.

And now I am challenging you to be brutally harsh on the product by reviewing it. Imagine you can say what you want, just have it in hand. But you won't because my confidence has scared you and you know you did something wrong and understand something has happened that will expose you as a further quack than you have done by yourself.

But hey we are nobodys, we sold our first shoe in 2019. There are plenty of brands who won't bat an eye at your process and worship you because 117000 people follow your instagram. You don't need to worry about losing ad revenue from a brand like ours... Best to walk away.

And i have not replied in full because you have said things I would need my craftsmen to help confirm because to be completely honest I have no idea what half the terms mean. You see that honesty? That separates me from you... I choose to not comment on things I know nothing about or have no basis for and seek answers from those who do. That is why I am not a quack and you are one.

 

[zoorado]

First let me confess that I am a fan of many Archibald products (the briefcase and the wallet are incredible). I haven't been active on SF for about a decade, and looking into what Archibald has to offer is one of the reasons I started lurking here again. I am kind of surprised how quickly this debate escalated, and while I feel Rohan has the better arguments, things like this quote

But you won't because my confidence has scared you and you know you did something wrong and understand something has happened that will expose you as a further quack than you have done by yourself.

But hey we are nobodys, we sold our first shoe in 2019. There are plenty of brands who won't bat an eye at your process and worship you because 117000 people follow your instagram. You don't need to worry about losing ad revenue from a brand like ours... Best to walk away.

do not help. I agree that assumptions about leather quality should not be made based on photos (and admittedly not the best photos even), and in the same vein, you should not be making assumptions regarding Jesper's motivation for not wanting to review the shoes. I get that sometimes we get carried away by our emotions, and there is a genuine charm to that, but to resort to baseless accusations indubitably dilutes your argument.

 

[ArchibaldRoh]

First let me confess that I am a fan of many Archibald products (the briefcase and the wallet are incredible). I haven't been active on SF for about a decade, and looking into what Archibald has to offer is one of the reasons I started lurking here again. I am kind of surprised how quickly this debate escalated, and while I feel Rohan has the better arguments, things like this quote



do not help. I agree that assumptions about leather quality should not be made based on photos (and admittedly not the best photos even), and in the same vein, you should not be making assumptions regarding Jesper's motivation for not wanting to review the shoes. I get that sometimes we get carried away by our emotions, and there is a genuine charm to that, but to resort to baseless accusations indubitably dilutes your argument.

Thank you for all your support and the kind words about some of our products.

I suppose you are right and perhaps that was a little harsh. I am saying what I think is actually going on but then by doing that I suppose I am as culpable as Jesper himself. For the life of me i don't understand why he chose to not clarify the situation by requesting a pair be sent rather than defend his approach and views. He has multiple times mentioned he does not think our business does what we say on the tin, again all baseless. Whether I agree or not, if he handled an item and then said it I wouldnt be able to defend at all... It would be achieved with process.

I do want to clarify that I a not asking him to write a review. Even simple handling the item and then writing "i stand by my thoughts" is fine. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on but his aversion towards the same and aversion from the very start is what makes me wonder and suspicious.

That is what an ethical journalist would do. The approach and subsequent defence of said approach with no intention of rectifying is simply not journalism with integrity.

I can take a bad review as I am learning every day and perfection is the only way we will achieve what we need to achieve. I will however be vocal when there is clear injustice, because it affects livelihoods - my teams and the craftsmen we work with. The shoes for example are made by people who have dedicated their lives to making excellent product including special collections for some of the most luxurious shoe brands in the world, they are(as many are) in a moment of precarity so we run a campaign to ensure their livelihood. Now having someone purchase a shoe for 289 when it should be sold for upwards of say 1400 according to traditional retail math... is attractive. To switch that up and say actually its worth 450 and you can get it for 289 loses a lot of appeal... To have someone write about the initiative and then make a claim on the product like that without ever getting near it... it's just weird. And then to subsequently defend their stance without showing a remote willingness to accept that maybe they have been wrong AND then say all of it is just marketing copy and we dont do whst we claim to do as a brand because it would be impossible to do so at our prices... Well that just compounds the effect and gets you wondering.

 

[zoorado]

Thank you for all your support and the kind words about some of our products.

I suppose you are right and perhaps that was a little harsh. I am saying what I think is actually going on but then by doing that I suppose I am as culpable as Jesper himself. For the life of me i don't understand why he chose to not clarify the situation by requesting a pair be sent rather than defend his approach and views. He has multiple times mentioned he does not think our business does what we say on the tin, again all baseless. Whether I agree or not, if he handled an item and then said it I wouldnt be able to defend at all... It would be achieved with process.

I do want to clarify that I a not asking him to write a review. Even simple handling the item and then writing "i stand by my thoughts" is fine. I wouldn't have a leg to stand on but his aversion towards the same and aversion from the very start is what makes me wonder and suspicious.

That is what an ethical journalist would do. The approach and subsequent defence of said approach with no intention of rectifying is simply not journalism with integrity.

I can take a bad review as I am learning every day and perfection is the only way we will achieve what we need to achieve. I will however be vocal when there is clear injustice, because it affects livelihoods - my teams and the craftsmen we work with. The shoes for example are made by people who have dedicated their lives to making excellent product including special collections for some of the most luxurious shoe brands in the world, they are(as many are) in a moment of precarity so we run a campaign to ensure their livelihood. Now having someone purchase a shoe for 289 when it should be sold for upwards of say 1400 according to traditional retail math... is attractive. To switch that up and say actually its worth 450 and you can get it for 289 loses a lot of appeal... To have someone write about the initiative and then make a claim on the product like that without ever getting near it... it's just weird. And then to subsequently defend their stance without showing a remote willingness to accept that maybe they have been wrong AND then say all of it is just marketing copy and we dont do whst we claim to do as a brand because it would be impossible to do so at our prices... Well that just compounds the effect and gets you wondering.

I was expecting a counter-argument where "best" is pegged to the leather quality of, say Main d'Or or JLP bespoke. But it seems he was really talking about the level of say, EG mainline. TBF, the comments he made in this thread about the finishing and construction, I do agree somewhat, and those can be much more easily discerned from photos and videos. But if you are aiming for the quality of $1400 RTW shoes the likes of EG and JL, then hand-welting and the lack of 'gemming' (for those who have been here long enough to remember) give your shoes an edge over those brands. Indeed, whether it is worth $1400 kind of rests solely on leather quality, beyond subjective aesthetics such as last shape. So yes, I agree this entire debate is warranted, but it is unfortunate that there is no real closure.

 

[dukenukem4ever]

Am huge fan of Shoegazing blog and Skolyx. Huge fan of Archibald as well. let's hug it out guys.

 

[CarltonBNE]

@ArchibaldRoh just getting this thread back on track, namely the limited time GMTO offering; could you post some additional photos of the shoes in a non-studio setting?