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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Nov 22, 2011.

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  1. comrade

    comrade Senior member

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    I disagree with your objection to notch lapel tuxes. Mine purchased from Paul Stuart in
    1965 (It still fits!) is natural shoulder with notch lapels. I wore it with a silk vest and an
    off-white silk evening shirt, which I still have, but no longer fits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  2. Digmenow

    Digmenow Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    I have read (but can no longer locate) advice that the tuxedo trouser is to be hemmed on a bias, allowing no break at the front while draping over the collar and part of the counter. I can't find a picture.
     
  3. Kaplan

    Kaplan Senior member

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    ^ That works for normal pents too. Even with cuffs my alterations tailor can get a difference of about 1 cm i lenght from back to front. Helps with a clean no-break in front while minimizing the risk of the high water look at the back.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  4. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I feel like there was two or three pages of debate regarding this towards the beginning of the threak. Anyway, my main objection to them is (now) not so much historical incorrectness but that it brings the tux one step closer to the business suit, which I feel ruins some of the effect. Not that a notch lapel tux is necessarily "wrong", I just think it's less elegant than a peak or shawl version. My personal preference is for peaks.
     
  5. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    The difficulty, with a lot of today's trousers, is that this has less impact when done on a very tapered bottom. In fact, it's the reason I stopped having the tailors taper mine; by leaving them a touch wider I could get this effect.
     
  6. Parterre

    Parterre Well-Known Member

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    Well, it can't be good when Hickey Freeman advertises this as a "Full Dress Tuxedo":

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Testudo_Aubreii

    Testudo_Aubreii Senior member

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    Bizarre. Like a butler whose employer dressed him incorrectly so as to distinguish him from guests.

    But props to Hickey for keeping the swallowtail coat alive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
  8. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    Isn't that kind of like congratulating people on inbreeding to keep the human race alive?
     
  9. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    If that's what it takes.
     
  10. Digmenow

    Digmenow Senior member

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  11. Parterre

    Parterre Well-Known Member

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    One can dream. I also got butler vibes from that Hickey Freeman rig.

    But I think the state of black tie is better than I thought when one sees this being worn by characters on a show meant for tweens. Now, I've been wavering on pocket flaps; I am no longer sure whether they belong in the "personal-but-not-my-taste" category with notched lapels or the "incorrect" category with venting. The button stance may be too high, lapels are too narrow for my taste (but I like them very wide, if not abnormally so), they all seem somewhat ill fitting, and the watches are terribly clunky (but I surmise that may be part of the "plot"), but besides that our Nickelodeon friends are dressed quite well:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
  12. F. Corbera

    F. Corbera Senior member

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    Nickelodeon is pretty much an exact paradigm for reality.

    What other tweens shows do you watch?
     
  13. Parterre

    Parterre Well-Known Member

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    I don't. I happened to see the dinner suits while channel flipping and was intrigued. But if what you say is true, then black tie is in better shape than it has been in years. Alas, I'm skeptical.
     
  14. F. Corbera

    F. Corbera Senior member

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    Not even iCarly?
     
  15. johnvw

    johnvw Senior member

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    One can always hope ...:blush:
     
  16. Parterre

    Parterre Well-Known Member

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    Last such show I watched was That's So Raven. Apparently Disney has gone considerably downhill since then. But we're not counting Spongebob, right? Even if his DJs leave much to be desired:

    [​IMG]

    But that was then, this is now. But that one guy on the right, his lapels are straight to the point of being Tautz lapels. Intresting, never seen that on a dinner jacket.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2012
  17. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    I have to be honest, looks better than most of what was at the Academy awards. Other than the shitty clip-on bows.
     
  18. Van Veen

    Van Veen Senior member

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    I wonder how many people even know the most basic of "the rules" anymore... e.g. black/white tie is evening wear. Saw a recent Sunday matinee orchestra/chorus performance... the orchestra was in suits :fonz:, chorus in black tie :facepalm:, the conductor was in white tie :fu:.
     
  19. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    That's better than all of the banners outside the LA philharmonic (or opera, can't remember): they have photos of their musical director in what would be a white tie getup, but with a black tie and waistcoat...
     
  20. Testudo_Aubreii

    Testudo_Aubreii Senior member

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    Depending on how you look at it, black waistcoat with a dress suit isn't wholly inappropriate. According to some dress historians, Edward VII when Bertie Prince of Wales started wearing a white waistcoat with his dress suits in place of the then-largely-regnant (1888?) black waistcoat. It was a sort of casualizing or de-solemnizing measure: an Edwardian rebellion against Victorian solemnity. In a sense, wearing a black WC with a dress suit is just returning to that solemnity.

    Of course, you could also say that Bertie was just returning to tradition, since white, ivory, cream, stone, and yellow-buff waistcoats had been quite normal with full-dress evening attire until 1830 or so.

    As for black ties with full evening dress, they were still worn in the 1870s. Sator's picture linked here (scroll to the bottom) is from the 1870s.

    In the 19th and early 20th centuries, a non-clergyman's wearing a black tie where white ties were expected was often interpreted as expressing dissasfaction with the power structure and sympathy with those at the bottom of it. In 2012, it's anyone's guess as to what its political overtones are.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012

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