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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Nov 22, 2011.

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  1. greger

    greger Senior member

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    Yes, I would too. But I would still want them to be creative. In middle school and high school in the late 60s and early 70s I really can't go back and be that because the world has changed so much. Flower children clothing who can really wear that anymore? It had meaning and purpose but who remembers enough to wear it? Clothes from 80 years ago? Music, news, movies, etc. are part of the clothes and nobody lives in that world today. Pretending is what children do. Now that does not mean we can't come up with new reasons, but then the clothes would have to match, so that means they would be somewhat different.
    Take drape in it's heyday with thousands of tailors and thousands more customers. The excitement and the thousands of variations. The drape here on this forum isn't even peanuts. The mood and other descriptive words we don't have it for drape of the past. Anyway, that's how I see it.
     
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  2. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    You want creative?

    Here's creative:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Lensmaster

    Lensmaster Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with things that are classic. I dislike the idea of "new" being a virtue in and of itself. So many people like new styles, and new music, and new everything simply because it is new. In the 60's and 70's tradition somehow became something bad. I wear a traditional tuxedo because it is timeless. My suits are influenced by the styles of 80 years ago. Music and movies I like the most are 80 years old. I drink classic cocktails. Black tie fully developed in the 1920's and remained mostly unchanged until the 1960's. Yes there were some additions to the choices but the basic tuxedo was the same. Things only dramatically changed in the late 60's when everything that existed was being thrown out in protest. The flower power look of now style came and yes went because it was exactly that, lack of style. What replaced it? a move back to classic looks. there have always been fad looks, the zoot suits of the 1940's come to mind. Classic style stays when fashion fades away.
     
  4. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    If you're taking that position, you cannot look at formalwear in a vacuum and have to look at men's fashion (the part involving suits, at least) on the whole. Far less has changed between 1920 and now than changed between 1875 and 1920. So, if our suiting styles are still largely based on those of 80-100 years ago, so too should our formal styles. All those guys did really was bring formalwear into the 20th century by progressively phasing out the tailcoat and making formalwear more in line with the daywear of the era. However, if we're not going to invent totally new styles of daywear, then why would we do so for formalwear?




    Again, I think you're looking at things too narrowly; both clothing styles and the definition of "creativity". While both daytime and formal clothes may follow the same basic style of 80+ years ago, they do so in the way Ford pickup trucks have. There's a cab. There's a bed. There's an engine in front. There's a drivetrain underneath. Not nearly the radical changes made to other automobiles.

    But if you look at each next to each other, you'll see vast differences in cuts to the point that the wearer looks quite different in each. Jackets over the years have both lengthened and shortened. Trousers have gone from fitted to baggy and back to fitted; sometimes with pleats and sometimes without. At various stages some items have been more in vogue than others (the ivory DJ in warm weather, double breasted styles, the cummerbund vs. the waistcoat). An expert could likely date any getup to within five years of when it was made based on the cut and details.

    One also has a license to get creative without creating something entirely new. In fact, the most creative people are those able to work within the confines of tradition to give it a refresh that demonstrates true respect for that tradition but does so with a modern interpretation.
     
  5. greger

    greger Senior member

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    Back to the future. But, not to far back. The 20s and 30s each were there own fads, so this mythical "golden age"? If those here, who flaunt their weight, hadn't seen the 40s and 50s they would be outspoken against that as they are for anything new today. Anyway, the 60s and 70s were fine, since we needed a break. Clinging to the past is stomping out the future. Saying high fashion is poor taste do you mind explaining the creases in your trousers? Some arguments, on this website, are cherry picking history so not logical.
     
  6. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Senior member

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    There are fads within each period of history (though most die out), but there are also some things that remain relatively constant. I am not sure what the next great innovation in men's style will be, but chances are when it happens it may not involve tailored clothing. I think looking to the past for inspiration is fine and does not in any way stomp out the future. Tradition is innocent until proven guilty, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's something we should pay attention to.
     
  7. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    I'm banking on self-cleaning underwear. You heard it here first.
     
  8. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    I must admit I am on Greger's side of the fence with respect to black tie. I applaud those bringing their own style to formal occasions rather than copying the clothes of their grandfathers.
     
  9. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    Then you can clap your hands raw for these gents. ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  10. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    You do not like them? It's showbiz!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  11. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Senior member

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    The problem is 98% of the population would be better off not trying to innovate. There are few innovations that look as good or better than the classic forms of black tie. Unless you are onto something special, don't bother. Plus there are the issues of etiquette and expectations.
     
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  12. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    I know I am in the minority in this thread but the stilted and repressed costume worn 80 years ago is not the example we should be following. I suspect the disappearance of the bow tie will be the first brick in the wall to be removed followed by all that shiny material. I am all for a formal style just not one that my grandfather born when Queen Victoria was on the throne would have worn.
     
  13. RHS2362

    RHS2362 Member

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    This.

    Doing something just to be different doesn't mean you are cool or hip. Cool or hip people can get away with doing something different because they are cool or hip as a matter of personality, the rest of us just look silly when we try it or like we are trying too hard to be cool or hip.
     
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  14. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    I am going to keep banging this gong as I know the 98% of people who hire their DJ for the odd occasion they need one would look better in suit like photo 4 above rather than 1 and 3 which is the usual mess, bow tie or not..
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  15. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    But what it sounds like you're describing is "cocktail attire" replacing black tie, just the way black tie replaced white tie (for the most part). Nothing wrong with that per se, but it's an evolution to a less formal form of dress, not an evolution of black tie itself.

    Also, the bow is making a comeback for regular daytime dress as well, so I think that one is likely to stick around, as more and more guys get comfortable with wearing them in general.
     
  16. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Senior member

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    It sounds like you want black tie to die out. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on that one, but until it actually does die out, the words black tie do have a certain meaning, one which is at least in part rooted in history and tradition.
     
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  17. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    I think the tux is quite optimal in enhancing the male silhouette at night. The cummerbund or vest elongates the leg line. The white shirt surrounded by the black coat can contribute to the illusion of slimness. It may be costume but it is hard find other clothing that does all that better. The white tie rig is even better but has to be made to the wearer for it to work and is thus inaccessible to most.
     
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  18. powerkicker

    powerkicker Senior member

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    Tradition is the glue that binds a people together. I ,for one,think black tie is part of that gentlemanly tradition. It is a show of respect for your fathers, your fellow gentlemen, and yourself.
     
  19. greger

    greger Senior member

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    "The problem is 98% of the population would be better off not trying to innovate."

    Well realtor which cave do you think is better for me? This one or that one? I certainly don't want that thing over there. What did he call it? A house?[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  20. greger

    greger Senior member

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    Nothing against white or black tie, but sooner or later times change. I don't have a problem with most of the clothes males wore throughout history. Most men have problems with the clothes of the past. My grandfather was part of the past where body coats stepped in to the history books as business wear. The lowly lounge and reefer had to be figured out how to make equal to that which they replaced. I tend to think a new kind of garment will show up and replace. When, nobody knows.
     

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