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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Nov 22, 2011.

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  1. powerkicker

    powerkicker Well-Known Member

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    My wife and I attended a black tie-optional event last weekend. I saw only one more tied bow. Lots of clip ons. Still, there were several folks out of about three hundred dressed well enough per black tie etiquette. I wore a double breasted peak lapel, self tie bow, pique shirt with gold studs and cufflinks, polished to death Park Avenues and everything fit well.

    There were several tuxedo sets being worn with standard long ties, loafers, colorful cummerbunds and button sleeves. One gent wore French cuffs with the cufflink fastened like a normal barrel cuff. Odd.

    I and my wife had a great time. The women typically were dressed very well overall.
     
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  2. ImTheGroom

    ImTheGroom Well-Known Member

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    The very good reason you refer to is that central heating did not exist. And, no, in the couple of seconds one's waistcoat is exposed due to a movement of the arms, the eye wool not clearly register a gap. If looking right at the spot, yes you'll see the two articles of clothing; if looking elsewhere, one is less likely to be visually drawn to the same material than a different one. At any rate, it is the norm now, and a matter of personal preference.
     
  3. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

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    Another misconception: the good reason is that it looks best and people did open their DB jackets when sitting down.
    People still wear 3 pieces suit and there are no noticeable differences in Heath level between a SB and a DB jacket with today fabrics weight.

    What defines your norm? An online guide?
     
  4. ImTheGroom

    ImTheGroom Well-Known Member

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    One day, you'll amaze us all by making a post that isn't snide. My norm is based on the extensive searching I've done of what is currently available to purchase RTW. Of those that are correct (i.e. low-cut) these are largely with silk-faced revers.

    The fact that people still wear 3-piece suits doesn't mean that consistent heating indoors did not make 2-piece suits viable, and allow them to become popular. I prefer three piece suits, because I love how they look. I have one double breasted suit, and it features a lovely double breasted waistcoat, with peak revers. I've also been known to wear my dove grey waistcoat under my db navy blazer. The fact that one can wear a waistcoat with a double breasted suit, or dinner jacket, does not make it necessary. If your opinion is that it looks better, that is certainly a valid point of view. People are quite right, however, in saying it is not required with a double breasted dinner jacket; no one has said, to the best of my recollection, that it is unacceptable to wear both a DB DJ and a waistcoat. I would also venture that there is no compelling argument that a cummerbund is inappropriate with a DB DJ; I would also say that there is no compelling argument in its favour, but I don't think I could find fault with the combination, if someone chose to wear it.
     
  5. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

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    This will happen at the same time as your advice will have a big fat disclaimer on where it is based on.

    Edit: and your answer on why 2 pieces suits are also acceptable does not counter on the fact that a three pieces SB and DB does not offer a meaningful difference in comfort level to justify your response in the first place

    So your sampling of less then an handful of correct low cut evening waistcoat RTW are satin makes it the norm for you? What about the majority of people that bespeak evening waistcoats from reputable firms and these are made self facing? Is it not the norm?

    So the advice should be either you get a waist covering or not, nor that by choosing a DB you do not need it, just because everybody on the Internet is saying so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  6. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think that a waistcoat for a dinner jacket should have self-faced lapels, not satin or grosgrain. As far as wearing a waistcoat with a DB jacket, I see no reason why it cannot be done but it certainly is not as necessary as it would be with a SB jacket. Like Marco, I have consulted more sources than simply what is available online. I also appreciate the irony of a guy on the internet making snide comments about advice given by guys on the internet.
     
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  7. Tried and True

    Tried and True Well-Known Member

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    :tounge:
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  8. Lensmaster

    Lensmaster Well-Known Member

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    In answer to your question, I think a white waistcoat is perfectly fine. There are some people who say a white waistcoat should only be worn with white tie. I humbly disagree with them. I have seen numerous examples of it being worn with black tie in the thirties. Since then it has been mostly superseded by the black waist coat. But it does keep the black and white color scheme and I think it looks much better than the various prints some men try to get away with.
     
  9. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Well-Known Member

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    White waistcoat is fine. It should be worn with a peak lapel jacket, though.
     
  10. culverwood

    culverwood Well-Known Member

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    I would not touch a white waistcoat with black tie but if you like the look go for it.
     
  11. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

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    With reference to the suggestion of white waistcoat being fine because it was done in the 1930's, I would add that the white waistcoat can be worn, but it must be paired (and therefore cut for), very high rise trousers to look good.

    That was the way it was back then and it looked good as you would not see any white bits peaking from below the jacket buttoning point
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
  12. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Well-Known Member

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    Well, "back in the day" when standards were a bit different, I think that the DB suit had more need for the waistcoat than the DB DJ. Why? Because back when braces were considered "underwear" one could probably only remove their suit coat if they were wearing a waistcoat. So, most suits probably would have been three-piece variants. At no time has it been considered acceptable to remove one's DJ, so no need. Also, with a DB suit and typical suit waistcoat, the waistcoat could still be visible above the buttoning point. Not so with a DB DJ and proper formal waistcoat. So even when all three pieces are worn, the waistcoat has the potential to aesthetically change the suit, but not the tuxedo.

    As to the unbuttoning when seated, wouldn't the inner button still be left fastened?




    Exactly. If one has a thing for three-piece suits, then no reason not to have one's tuxedo made as a three-piece even if it's DB, and back 75 years ago, perhaps people just defaulted to three-piece for most things. The one thing that wouldn't ever be appropriate/necessary with a DB DJ, IMO, would be a cummerbund.
     
  13. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not they would actually open (all buttons) the DB Dinner (or lounge) jacket when sitting down to eat.

    As a side note, I was personally kind of adverse to DB until last year because in my eyes it was the configuration of older gentlements, probably influenced by the fact that this was the favourite configuration of my grandfather. However, having been studying a lot of family pictures during a recent research, I actually noticed that he was wearing DB jackets in his early 20's and 30's, as well as discoverying that my dad did the same in his youth and only later moved to an all SB wardarobe, so I am toying with the idea of start ordering some DB
     
  14. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Well-Known Member

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  15. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Well-Known Member

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    I have one DB suit and I love it. Quite badass, IMO, especially when cut with more modern proportions.
     
  16. Itsuo

    Itsuo Well-Known Member

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    Good points, thank you. I've never heard of having it made completely in the jacket's facing material. That would be quite the piece! I'll ask him again, I tend to move in the directions he guides me but I will consider these points.
    Thank you for this @Lensmaster I didn't know about the association with white/cream waistcoats and white tie. That might discourage me since I wouldn't want to stand out too much.

    Yes, my jacket is SB with a peak lapel.

    Very good point @marcodalondra ! Something I hadn't thought of at all. I suppose if I get the waistcoat cut in a double breasted style it will be possible to have it cleanly cut high enough to avoid this situation because the trousers are cut higher than most of my suit pants.

    Thank you all for your comments! I'll be sure to update everyone on what I decide when I visit the shop again next year.
     
  17. greger

    greger Well-Known Member

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    If you guys could bring these guys into today's world what would they say about you guys copying them of 80 years ago? They certainly were not copying people 80 years prior. I think they would think you guys are nuts. They weren't even copying people 20 years earlier. I'm sure they would say, "Invent your own after 6 clothes". "Man up".
     
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  18. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Well-Known Member

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    Guess Greger got bored in the thread on that new Neapolitan tailoring outfit.
     
  19. greger

    greger Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is like cats fighting. It is people making up rules from thin air as though everything hangs from them. No wonder why business men who buy from other tailors never show up. If drape is God then this is a pagan forum. The draperies are so selfish and closed minded. Does anybody know of open minded forums about tailored Clothes.
     
  20. Tried and True

    Tried and True Well-Known Member

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    I think that they would be proud to have created a lasting style and encourage its continuous wear. At least I would, were it me.
     

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