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The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Nov 22, 2011.

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  1. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    best bet RTW?
    http://shop.edeandravenscroft.com/collections/formal-dress
     
  2. OTM

    OTM Senior member

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    I think it might be. It seems that would come to £825 + tailoring. What do we think the going rate for MTM is?

    Surely, there are viable options for £1000?

    And then we aren't far off bespoke, but that brings waiting time and traveling cost into the picture. I am in Norway.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  3. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    If you're looking to do this on a budget, try Tyrwhitt's classic fit tuxedo:

    http://www.ctshirts.com/mens-suits/...xedo-suit?q=usddefault||dja03blk|||||||||||||

    Waistcoat available here:

    http://www.ctshirts.com/mens-suits/...usddefault||dj009blk|||||||||||||&page=2&so=y

    Classic fit waistcoat appears to be on back order, though slim fit version is available (material should be same).
     
  4. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    The side vents won't be an easy get as they are not a traditional feature of Black Tie. High waisted trousers might be tricky as well. Oxxford comes to mind for the latter. Good luck.
     
  5. zeero3

    zeero3 Senior member

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    If you're a 38R, you might be in luck....
     
  6. OTM

    OTM Senior member

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    Grrrrrrr... 40r
     
  7. OTM

    OTM Senior member

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    Thanks for the Tyrwhitt suggestion BTW, I have looked long and hard at it. In the end, the gap at the waist between trousers and waistcoat is just too much.
     
  8. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    they are equally traditional (made commons from the 1920s) as spotted by DoW
     
  9. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    I've seen lots of vintage BT rigs (PoW's included) and all were ventless.
     
  10. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    All the Duke of Windsor dinner suit that went to auction and are kept in museums like the MET, are all vented.. I guess when you say PoW from the 20's you mean the young Duke, so where are those examples you have seen???
     
  11. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    I viewed the PoW's wardrobe prior to auction at Sotheby's in 1997. No vented formal wear and much of his town suits were ventless as well. The auction included his entire wardrobe from the 20s through the 70s.



    [​IMG]
     
  12. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    T & T,

    although that picture appear to show a ventless jacket, other pictures demonstrate that the vents were further back and maybe, i say maybe, even that jacket was vented:

    [​IMG]


    also the MET has recently changed website so you cannot see all the pictures for each item in the catalogue, however I luckily saved some from the previous site:

    [​IMG]


    and a tartan evening [​IMG]
    suit:
     
  13. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    I stand corrected on the Duke owning a vented DJ though that won't be much help for OTM finding one off the rack, which is dominated by ventless. Personally, I don't have a problem with vents or even a notch lapel on a DJ as they were both worn back in the day, albeit by a small minority. I would still term peak lapel/ventless as traditional if only because it was worn by the vast majority. That said, Black Tie garb has always been given greater latitude than White Tie as the Duke's tartan rig would illustrate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  14. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    Have you tried on the full rig, or are you going by the photos? I ask because, seeing as this is the "regular fit", the guy seems to have sized down in the photo, so that it's more of a slim fit. I also think he may be wearing his trousers a shade too low (also a size too small) so all of the problems may correct themselves with a proper fit.

    For example, it doesn't appear that the model for the "slim fit" dinner suit has the same issue:

    http://www.ctshirts.com/mens-suits/...suit-vest?q=usddefault||dj037blk|||||||||||||

    which is pretty counterintuitive in my mind. Enough so that it might be worth ordering the various pieces in a couple sizes to try and seeing if you experience the same issue.
     
  15. OTM

    OTM Senior member

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    Actually, I have just gone by the pictures. I am scared that they would let that out on the site.
     
  16. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    It would also appear that the DoW is wearing a DB DJ, which in my opinion should always have side vents so that the wearer may actually sit down and not have the jacket ride all the way up (since unlike an SB jacket you don't unbutton it upon sitting).

    Also, if you look at today's middle-to-high-end makers, it's not very hard to find a double vented DJ; what is hard is finding a double vented DJ accompanied by pleated trousers. Ever since slimmer fits started to become more and more common, it's possible to find otherwise completely traditional tuxedos with flat front pants and vented jackets in droves. I've seen them from Zegna and RL and am sure I could find others if I looked.

    Buying separates seems like one of the only ways to find both (other than MTM). In fact my first recommendation to the OP would have been Brooks Brothers tuxedo separates, but I don't believe BB sells a U-shaped waistcoat (at least I know they don't online), and I can't be sure which of the jackets do and don't have vents.

    ETA: A couple of examples of "traditional" tuxedos whose only departures are flat front trousers and vents (and maybe the easily-remedied pocket flaps):

    http://www.neimanmarcus.com/Ermeneg...ements%3D&eItemId=prod162510185&cmCat=product

    http://www.neimanmarcus.com/Brioni-...ements%3D&eItemId=prod162510186&cmCat=product

    http://www.ralphlauren.com/product/...n_men_cs_formalwear&view=99&parentPage=family

    http://www.paulstuart.com/product_i...35&MainCatId=14&HEADERMENUID=1&SUBPRODCATID=0
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  17. TimelesStyle

    TimelesStyle Senior member

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    Well, unfortunately, stylists today who prep these shoots aren't nearly as educated as they should be about proper black tie fit/style. I mean look at the slim fit pics shown with a long tie... Heck, the regular fit tuxedo vest is modeled by itself on a mannequin with a purple and white striped shirt :eek:.

    My point is simply that you have to take the fits shown with a grain of salt, since those styling them probably get everything in in one size, it may not be the right size for a particular model but they make it work and do so while going for a certain aesthetic which may be different than your own (and which you can achieve through a proper fit). I can also practically guarantee you that the model is wearing the trousers down on the hip since I can't imagine them remembering to fit him with braces for the shoot, something you would undoubtedly correct.

    It's also possible that whomever did the fitting wasn't used to a straight-bottom waistcoat, since most single-breasted waistcoats accompanying three-piece suits extend lower on either side of the buttoning point than at the buttoning point itself (in a peak/valley fashion, for which I'm sure there's a proper term).
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  18. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    No to keep arguing on this, but the Duke had several dinner and regular jackets that had vents, I actually have not seen one that clearly did not have vents, aside of tails .( I can create a separate thread if needed with all the pictures saved from the various suits at the MET, donated by the duchess).
    I have not have a preference in either case, but famously the Duke preferred vents (Even on the single breasted jacket I have personally seen at the V&A in London).

    You first answer was that was not traditional to have vents, and even the above argument that was not that common, and I disagree with both. A lot of those statements are driven by the research done by one or two individuals and everybody thereafter taking everything read as gospel. Proper analysis should be done on order ledgers from the major Savile Row firms, to see what were the trends on orders back in the early days of black tie.

    Finally, in the UK, is most common to find vented RTW dinner jacket, then the way around, so I guess it depends on regionality, but reading this forum for the past few years, I gathered then in US was common to see single vents rather then venteless...
     
  19. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    Well, here's what the head of Savile Row's Henry Poole (the birthplace of the tuxedo) has to say about vents on DJs:

    A classic DJ should be single-breasted, one-button with peak lapels (in corded silk), jetted pockets and no vents, although Henry Poole will permit them: "It's not correct but we don't frown on it," says Cundey



    http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/style/articles/2012-10/22/black-tie-menswear-guide-henry-poole
     
  20. ballmouse

    ballmouse Senior member

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