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The sport coat

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by AvariceBespoke, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    No, We English are in retreat full stop...

    If you're ever in Boston, I'll be pleased to buy you a drink...or three.

    - B
     
  2. George

    George Senior member

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    All ages. And in provincial towns (which I visit far less) they are ubiquitous.

    Suits are more common, and I would not go to a business meeting in London in tweeds, but shopping in the West End, I do not hesitate. If people are laughing at me, I can't hear them, and don't really care.


    Well I'm English and have lived in England all my life and my work takes me all over the United Kingdom and I can't agree that Tweeds are ubiquitous anywhere in England so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

    We all care to some degree how people see us, or else why would be here on the fora discussion clothes, why do we spend so much time finding tailors who can express are style, why do we spend a profligate amount of our income on clothes. Nobody dresses just for themselves.....nobody.
     
  3. George

    George Senior member

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    If you're ever in Boston, I'll be pleased to buy you a drink...or three.

    - B


    Thank you, I may take you up on that...[​IMG]
     
  4. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Well I'm English and have lived in England all my life and my work takes me all over the United Kingdom and I can't agree that Tweeds are ubiquitous anywhere in England so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

    We all care to some degree how people see us, or else why would be here on the fora discussion clothes, why do we spend so much time finding tailors who can express are style, why do we spend a profligate amount of our income on clothes. Nobody dresses just for themselves.....nobody.


    You would know, but I see a lot of them. Of course, I am looking for them, in a sense, so that might color my view of things.
     
  5. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    Well I'm English and have lived in England all my life and my work takes me all over the United Kingdom and I can't agree that Tweeds are ubiquitous anywhere in England so we'll have to agree to disagree there. We all care to some degree how people see us, or else why would be here on the fora discussion clothes, why do we spend so much time finding tailors who can express are style, why do we spend a profligate amount of our income on clothes. Nobody dresses just for themselves.....nobody.
    It's probably not a stretch for someone who hears imaginary voices, to see imaginary tweeds.[​IMG]
     
  6. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    I stopped looking at names when reading Manton's and FNB's posts, them having the same avatar make the whole thing like a weird patchwork of a demented mind's ramblings. Two thumbs up!
     
  7. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It's probably not a stretch for someone who hears imaginary voices, to see imaginary tweeds.[​IMG]

    OK, so an hour is beyond your power. Can you go ten minutes?
     
  8. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It can include them but by no means is it limited to them. Also modern/contemporary can mean "trendy" but they dont have to, they can mean making sense or practical for the times. One interesting example. By the end of the napoleonic wars, uniforms were minimalist, functional and stripped of all superfluous decoration as only 25 years of continuous war could produce. Twenty years later during the great peace, uniforms again became overly flamboyant and impractical. Even though the Napoleonic wars were earlier in time, military enthusiasts consder those uniforms more "modern". I would imagine the suit as set down in the late 1920s or whenever is a similar design between the frock coat and the track suit.

    It would be interesting to hear from them on this matter but the original topic didnt focus on "bespoke", it just asked what made a jacket more modern. I guess some people cant handle subtlties.

    Personally, I think Vox is mistaken and when my tailor makes his jacket with a very contemporary fabric it is "more" modern, even if it doesnt have the latest shoulders, lapels or whatever Donnatella is showing at the moment.


    I tend to think we're playing with semantics here, one of SF's favorite pastimes. You define your stuff as modern because it suits you to do so. For a fashionista, I imagine your stuff would be as out-of-step with "modern" as you suggest tweeds are. Similarly, the Trads consider my rather dowdy tastes shockingly modern. There's no right answer, as we all view these things from different lenses. Then we come on SF and argue about them, each from our own perspective. And never the twain shall meet.

    Setting aside the debate about the endless potential interpretations of "modern," I would imagine that for most people, "modern" is what they see in magazines and on the racks at their preferred high-dollar retailer. Modern, in that sense, doesn't have to equate to trendy, but the overlap is almost certain to be high.
     
  9. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I tend to think we're playing with semantics here, one of SF's favorite pastimes. You define your stuff as modern because it suits you to do so. For a fashionista, I imagine your stuff would be as out-of-step with "modern" as you suggest tweeds are. Similarly, the Trads consider my rather dowdy tastes shockingly modern. There's no right answer, as we all view these things from different lenses. Then we come on SF and argue about them, each from our own perspective. And never the twain shall meet.

    I would imagine for most people, though, that "modern" is what they see in magazines and on the racks at their preferred high-dollar retailer. Modern, in that sense, doesn't have to equate to trendy, but the overlap is almost certain to be high.


    I agree in the main, but I would not go this far in the relativistic direction.

    Someone mentioned yfyf, and I think he is a good example. Now, he is a young guy wearing suits and ties, and in that sense he is dressing retro. But in pretty much every other respect, his clothes look ... modern, contemporary, cutting edge, youthful, whatever. I don't think anyone -- even people who like the way I dress -- would ever say that about my clothes.

    There is a sliding scale, and we can make comparisons that have meaning, even if we can't always accurately plot coordindates on the scale.
     
  10. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    I agree in the main, but I would not go this far in the relativistic direction.

    Someone mentioned yfyf, and I think he is a good example. Now, he is a young guy wearing suits and ties, and in that sense he is dressing retro. But in pretty much every other respect, his clothes look ... modern, contemporary, cutting edge, youthful, whatever. I don't think anyone -- even people who like the way I dress -- would ever say that about my clothes.

    There is a sliding scale, and we can make comparisons that have meaning, even if we can't always accurately plot coordindates on the scale.


    err. I thought his whole thing was a 60s WkW throwback thing and posited he was an HK-er.
     
  11. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    err. I thought his whole thing was a 60s WkW throwback thing and posited he was an HK-er.

    There is a '60s vibe to his clothes, but then the '60s were in a certain sense a high-point of modernity, no?

    Historical references aside, to me a slim coat with narrow lapels, no drape, and funky details always looks more ... something (modernyouthfulcontemporaryhip) than the alternatives.
     
  12. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    There is a '60s vibe to his clothes, but then the '60s were in a certain sense a high-point of modernity, no?

    Historical references aside, to me a slim coat with narrow lapels, no drape, and funky details always looks more ... something (modernyouthfulcontemporaryhip) than the alternatives.


    Yeah I'd tend to agree. Def modern in the way I understood it was being discussed (hip/contemporary/fashionable) but considering the last few pages I'm just not sure what we're talking about.
     
  13. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yeah I'd tend to agree. Def modern in the way I understood it was being discussed (hip/contemporary/fashionable) but considering the last few pages I'm just not sure what we're talking about.

    I don't think any of us are, but we struggle on all the same.
     
  14. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There is a sliding scale, and we can make comparisons that have meaning, even if we can't always accurately plot coordindates on the scale.

    I agree with this, and didn't mean to suggest otherwise. But at the same time, we'll never really agree on more than the barest bones of the matter. Look at the unending debate over the ascot. I can't imagine wearing one, and consider it surprising anyone under 60 does. Yet we can't even agree on that.

    I guess I've just made my peace with the fact that a tweed three piece is hopelessly outdated, yet one cut way too short is (or recently was) cutting edge. Who decides that? It isn't us.
     
  15. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There is a '60s vibe to his clothes, but then the '60s were in a certain sense a high-point of modernity, no?

    Historical references aside, to me a slim coat with narrow lapels, no drape, and funky details always looks more ... something (modernyouthfulcontemporaryhip) than the alternatives.


    Does Tom Ford look more modern than this to you? It's starting to, to me. Doesn't it feel like Thom Browne's shtick has been around forever?

    I've become such a fashionista!
     
  16. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I am with you on the ascot, and used to feel very strongly about it. I have since seen guys younger than me wear it and look very good. But I still can't imagine wearing one myself. Then again, I used to hate knit ties, so who knows.

    I hope you are wrong about 3-piece tweeds, as I have 5m of a very nice tweed and want to get it made up some day, though I have no idea where/when I would wear it.
     
  17. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    I don't think any of us are, but we struggle on all the same.

    Well if we're talking about "art" and assorted niceties a modern design would be one that, in addition to it's utilitarianism, would turn back on itself and offer some sort of reflection on fashion design. So Carol Christian Poell who replaces interior stitching by industrial tape, makes his creation so stiff that you can't help but know they're here and generally approaches things in a deconstructionist way would be "modern" but Lanvin generally wouldn't, although it's pretty hip.
     
  18. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    Does Tom Ford look more modern than this to you? It's starting to, to me. Doesn't it feel like Thom Browne's shtick has been around forever?

    I've become such a fashionista!


    It is more "current" as far a suits go. I wouldn't call it any more modern though...
     
  19. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Does Tom Ford look more modern than this to you? It's starting to, to me. Doesn't it feel like Thom Browne's shtick has been around forever?

    I've become such a fashionista!


    Tom Ford and Thom Browne have fused in my mind to become Thom Forde.

    Seriously, Thom Browne looks to me like his inspiration is totally late '50s/early '60s mod. I don't know what I would call Tom Ford. I tried it on for the first time a week ago (to the day) and it looked like a mix of various SR elements from different tailors and exaggerated rather wildly. I guess that is new or modern in its way.
     
  20. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I don't think any of us are, but we struggle on all the same.

    This, I guess, is my only point. We're not discussing one thing, and I'm not sure we can without agreeing on a definition first. This being SF ...

    I am with you on the ascot, and used to feel very strongly about it. I have since seen guys younger than me wear it and look very good. But I still can't imagine wearing one myself. Then again, I used to hate knit ties, so who knows.

    I hope you are wrong about 3-piece tweeds, as I have 5m of a very nice tweed and want to get it made up some day, though I have no idea where/when I would wear it.


    I will join you in the tweed 3-piece, Manton. It's nice to see the charm in anachronism. And sooner or later, I'm sure we'll find ourselves back at the cutting edge, just as I did with my penchant for ripping off John Steed's wardrobe.
     

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