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The sport coat

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by AvariceBespoke, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    I'm pretty sure I've written a large body of short and biting quips regarding black suits. I'm the black suit Basho to FNB's Proust. Which is highly ironic considering that while I do wear a lot of black non-dressy clothes I only own one black suit and rarely wear it. If anyone is wondering what a modern look means and don't want to read all this thread just pickup a GQ and look at all the overstyled "in the klassy club having fun with the ladies" international playboy lifestyle ads. To me it's the epitome of not being modern but what do I know?
    [​IMG]
     
  2. luk-cha

    luk-cha Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think someone mentioned this above. They're nice, but perhaps a bit restrained compared to some of the vintage stuff (cf. some of Matt's Rubinaccis made from stuff pulled from the vaults). I was very surprised recently to see a Borrelli sportcoat book comprised entirely of 16 oz English cloths. Sadly, I think it's only for their own MTM program, but it's worth a look through just to see some of the really nice stuff in there.

    --Andre


    this is true there are alot of Matt's vintage tweed i like very much, but in this day and age we dont have those options anymore!
     
  3. gnatty8

    gnatty8 Senior member

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    gnatty, sorry if you took offense at my "barking," as FNB so kindly characterizes it. all i can say is, you brought it up. no one walked up to you and rudely said your navy pants were so wrong.

    in the future i will know better than to answer such questions. i did not realize it was a rhetorical question & just an opportunity to praise your attire in an elegant manner.

    it can be hard to tell when posters are seriously curious, and when posters are fishing for compliments.


    [​IMG]

    Trust me, I did not take offense at all.. I am not that insecure as to be upset when some random guy on the internet does not like my choice of navy trousers..
     
  4. gnatty8

    gnatty8 Senior member

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    gnatty, sorry if you took offense at my "barking," as FNB so kindly characterizes it. all i can say is, you brought it up. no one walked up to you and rudely said your navy pants were so wrong.

    in the future i will know better than to answer such questions. i did not realize it was a rhetorical question & just an opportunity to praise your attire in an elegant manner.

    it can be hard to tell when posters are seriously curious, and when posters are fishing for compliments.



    Or when they are being just plain sarcastic.. [​IMG]
     
  5. AndrewRogers

    AndrewRogers Senior member

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    OMG It is confusing when Manton and FNB post in series [​IMG]
     
  6. AvariceBespoke

    AvariceBespoke Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Dewey

    Dewey Senior member

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    Or when they are being just plain sarcastic.. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Dewey

    Dewey Senior member

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    I thought of another reason dark colors have become so much more popular. Men are buying fancy clothes to wear out at night. My prejudice against navy trousers flares up when I see things like this. I live in ready-to-wear-ville. Would like tropical wool trousers to wear to work during the day during the summertime. Would like something lighter than my medium brown summer shoes. Two of the four choices are very dark. The only good reason I can think of, for the existence of navy tropical wool trousers, is evening wear. Maybe you need these for those late-night summer parties.
     
  9. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think there are as many definitions of modern as posters on this thread. By modern, what do we mean exactly? If I had to guess what OP wants, it sounds more like fashionable and contemporary than anything else.

    ^^^ I agree with this, much more than I agree with this:

    If any of you think that you look "modern" in your bespoke tailored clothes, you're nuts, unless you are purposefully having your tailor imitate a RTW look or elements promoted or marketed by a current RTW mass market maker.

    'Modern' and 'contemporary' are two different things, though they are often confused. As I understand it, the former has much more to do with ideology and motivation than actual appearance.

    Now, I'm not sure to what degree a bespoke tweed odd jacket can generally be considered 'modern'--but if you think nothing better has come along, it's as modern a choice as possible.
     
  10. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    this is true there are alot of Matt's vintage tweed i like very much, but in this day and age we dont have those options anymore!

    Just become a Rubinacci client. [​IMG] From what I've heard from Matt about their cloth vault, there's plenty of interesting cloth to go around.

    'Modern' and 'contemporary' are two different things, though they are often confused. As I understand it, the former has much more to do with ideology and motivation than actual appearance.

    Yes to both points, but not many people mean big-M Modern when they say modern. It seems most people who use this term use it to vaguely refer to something that looks contemporaneous with popular fashion.

    I think there's also too much hand-wringing over how far back in time a tweed-like cloth will set back a piece of clothing. The wearer and the design of the clothing will have far more effect than the cloth. Not much Thom Browne, for example, could be mistaken for anachronism.

    --Andre
     
  11. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This thread has taken a really absurd tangent.

    Would FNB be up in arms about tweed in town if not for me? I doubt it.

    I find it hilarious that one of his biggest hobby-horses is to complain about the rule-bound (i.e., me) and how anachronistic and pedantic we are, and determined to dress as if it were forever 1936, and then he uncorks this totally asinine "rule" that in 2009 tweed cannot be worn in town. Sure, big guy. Only in your mind -- and not even there, I would bet. So do you only wear your 8-panel Frankencoat on your country estate? Wait -- no. You have already said that you wear it in the city. So it's only bad when I do it. Check. Like so many of your "rules."

    The most anachronistic thing I wear is a DB vest, always solid colored. It is a little out of the ordinary, and it elicits the occasional comment about its unusualness. No one ever says anything about tweed in town -- except, sometimes, "Nice jacket."
     
  12. George

    George Senior member

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    '...No one ever says anything about tweed in town -- except, sometimes, "Nice jacket."...'

    I think this very much depends on the town, venue, the age of the wearer and the crowd you run with. For example here in England a young British man wearing a tweed jacket would not be viewed as stylish but would likely be sniggered at.
     
  13. norton

    norton Well-Known Member

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    With regards to sports coats and navy pants, why would anyone complain of navy pants worn with a camel's hair sport coat? Other than dark brown pants, what would you wear?
     
  14. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    With regards to sports coats and navy pants, why would anyone complain of navy pants worn with a camel's hair sport coat? Other than dark brown pants, what would you wear?

    Grey pants, of course. Grey + camel = [​IMG]
     
  15. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    'Modern' and 'contemporary' are two different things, though they are often confused. As I understand it, the former has much more to do with ideology and motivation than actual appearance.

    Now, I'm not sure to what degree a bespoke tweed odd jacket can generally be considered 'modern'--but if you think nothing better has come along, it's as modern a choice as possible.


    Yes to both points, but not many people mean big-M Modern when they say modern. It seems most people who use this term use it to vaguely refer to something that looks contemporaneous with popular fashion.

    Among other things, modernity is about consumption, mass production, disposability, and at at least a partial nod to egalitarianism. These aesthetics are best captured by RTW designers who produce seasonal clothing and disposable "looks." In theory, one can have bespoke tailoring follow a similar path, as it did briefly during the London peacock revolution, or as it continues to be in the ever dwindling world of women's couture. As the tide ever recedes from bespoke production, however, and as its practioners diminish in numbers and increase in years, the art is essentially marooned on the island of classic style. We quibble constantly about what that is, but people who do not wear bespoke clothing are not at all confused by it.

    Which bespoke tailor shall call modern? Any? Are we going to dust off poor old Ozwald Boateng again? I guess he was modern briefly...does anyone wear him anymore?

    Frankly, the mere production time of a high end bespoke suit rivals the rise, life, and fall of a modern "look."


    - B
     
  16. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Among other things, modernity is about consumption, mass production, disposability, and at at least a partial nod to egalitarianism. These aesthetics are best captured by RTW designers who produce seasonal clothing and disposable "looks."

    It's this premise I disagree with. It sounds like you are describing one significant aspect of the socio-historical phenomenon of modernism, not what is fundamentally modern. While modernism led to innovations in disposable goods that could be mass produced, it is not defined by such things. Rather, modernism is the drive to dispose of what is needlessly assumed in favor of what is objectively superior. This can lead to both disposable things and things of permanence--and it doesn't always mean newer and more contemporary. When rationality and science don't reveal something superior to what's already being done, a good modernist may stick to tradition and rely on the wisdom of experience.

    Twentieth century technnology gave us all sorts of advances in synthetic fabrics and mass production techniques, but how many people think poly-blends are more comfortable than high quality pure cotton? A nylon windbreaker has certain advantages over a tweed jacket, but I am not convinced it is objectively superior.

    An argument can be made that synthetic materials and mass production offer efficiency that traditional tailored clothing can't, but the overall benefits may not be greater. Whether that matters to you is a question of what kind of modernist you are, not whether you are one.

    It's the post-modernist that is more likely to value the contemporary for the sake of it being contemporary.
     
  17. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    An argument can be made that synthetic materials and mass production offer efficiency that traditional tailored clothing can't, but the overall benefits may not be greater. Whether that matters to you is a question of what kind of modernist you are, not whether you are one.

    It's the post-modernist that is more likely to value the contemporary for the sake of it being contemporary.


    Things are clearer with clothing.

    Both Modernism and post-Modernism have spoken definitively about clothing, and that speech is distinctly anti-tailoring. A bespoke garment as we understand here is about skillful adaptation of classic male dress to the individual tastes and form of the client. It is artisanal and personal, and not modern.

    When it comes to clothing, the modernist solution is to offer a vast array of pre-made objects, most cheap, some not, from which people express their individuality through selection and combination, and in many cases, their social status and identity through disposing of how they appear one day and adopting new pre-made objects the next.

    Again, I can't name a modern bespoke tailor...can you?

    No one gets confused that Slimane, Ford, Browne, etc. etc. (take your pick from the changing multitudes) are modern (in the latter two, more post modern if we want to be dry.) That is the direct route to being modern, not having your middle aged or octogenarian Italian or English tailor make you your usual jacket, but in Moonbeam or Millionaire rather than Glorius Twelfth.


    - B
     
  18. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    ^^^ Oh, I don't disagree that most modernists would probably reject bespoke tailoring. But that doesn't mean there is no modernist rationale supporting it. So, if you are looking at modernism as a static collection of views subject to consensus determination, you are completely right: bespoke tailoring is not modern. But, as I've pointed out, modernism is not about particular looks, designs, or approaches, but rather about a particular mindset. After all, a basic tenet of modernism is that consensus itself is meaningless.

    Of two people in a the same tailored, classic outfit, one may be modern while the other is not. It all depends on why he dressed that way. This is why I think so many of us like classic, tailored clothes and modern design at the same time--they aren't necessarily so disparate.

    BTW, I don't think Slimane is modern at all. He relies heavily on the suit format; a real compromise. Modernists tend to go one way or another: (1) wipe away what's been done, or (2) failing a informed guidance on how to proceed in that manner, slowly evolve what's been done already.
     
  19. Dewey

    Dewey Senior member

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    Vox, your definition of modern clothing works for me.

    I'dd add that a postmodern wardrobe would have a mix of styles borrowed from disparate times and places. A few bespoke items mixed up with many mass-produced items would make a postmodern wardrobe. If your desire for a bespoke suit is of a piece with your desire for all the best this and that from all places and times -- e.g., your desire for Australian chelsea boots, Scottish sweaters, shimmery kimonos, and vintage smoking jackets, then your taste for bespoke is quite postmodern.

    To be pre-modern in your love for bespoke clothing, you'd have to wear nothing but artisanal or homemade clothing. Like the Amish. Or Sator.

    We are all postmodern. It is the condition of the age we live in. This internet forum is one of the most postmodern things there could be.
     
  20. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    Of two people in a the same tailored, classic outfit, one may be modern while the other is not. It all depends on why he dressed that way.

    True...one might sorta be modern in aesthetic inclination, and one might sorta not be, be in neither case are they likely to be perceived as modern by others.

    It's like whipping out a fountain pen, or wearing a watch. There is an unavoidable throwback element to being in coat and tie today...even in coat and no tie.

    This is why I think so many of us like classic, tailored clothes and modern design at the same time--they aren't necessarily so disparate.

    I think that this is a sampling error related to a third attribute: propensity to interact on the Internet.


    - B
     

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