The RTW Hand Welted Shoe Threak (Handies Only)

[GeneralEmployer]

I've been a reader of SF for a long time. While there's a lot of great information about hand welted (HW) shoes on this forum, there's not a lot of information in terms of what HW means for specific RTW brands. This is unfortunate, because when the luxury retail market collapses, I want to know what HW RTW shoe I'm going to order ten pairs of: I can almost see these pairs sitting somewhere in a European warehouse as I write this. But I need help: the vision is still a little hazy for me.

A quick note: During these difficult times, DWF's eternal edict has become an article of faith for me: "Every significant aspect of GY fails when compared to HW, Every significant aspect." I've found myself repeating these words before I go to bed each night. For the purposes of this thread, this shall be the final word about the virtues of GY v. HW in the abstract.

HW RTW Brands

We live in a world full of marketing gimmicks: 'Handwelted' –– and things associated with hand welting, such as a superior footbed, increased longevity, etc –– means different things for different makers. I'd like to go through the construction quality of different brands that offer RTW HW shoes, and what, if anything, it all means. I'll try to get this thread going with some questions that I feel have not been definitively answered yet. It could be that I'm asking the wrong questions, but I'm just trying to get people talking who actually own a lot of HW and GY RTW shoes.

• How many more resoles can the more well-known HW brands handle when compared to their GY counterparts? Many forum members/bloggers claim that RTW HW shoes will get you only one or two more resoles. Some even go so far as to say that despite being able to resoled more, the functional life of a RTW HW shoe is essentially the same as RTW GY shoe. This seems wrong if the HW process is followed faithfully. Do RTW brands follow the process faithfully? For instance, all things being equal, how many more resoles would an EB shoe get over a Carmina shoe, if any?

• I've read some cryptic comments on this forum that some HW brands, like EB for one, do "bizarre things" that negate the benefits of hand welting. I'm not taking about stuff like clicking, but fundamental construction methods that are at odds with the spirit of hand welting. Is this really true of EB or any other well-known HW maker? If so, what exactly is being done wrong?

• How do your RTW GY shoes compare in comfort to your RTW HW shoes? I'm aware of the lighter weight and flex of many HW shoes, but does this translate to truly added comfort? This has been discussed a lot actually, but not in terms of comparisons between brands, or making allowances for differences between lasts (the thing that will most affect comfort). For anybody with a large collection of RTW, is your most comfortable shoe GY or HW? (I know it's easier to get fitted for GY, and there are many other variable at play, so please factor this to your analysis).

Please add to this very brief RTW hand welted shoes list below. (There's many makers that do reputable MTO HW options, like Sons of Henrey, but I'm trying to keep the list limited to RTW makers that regularly stock HW shoes in anticipation of our pending economic collapse):

Meermin (Linea Maestro)
Enzo Bonafe
Vass
Antonio Meccariello

 

[Aquafortis]

I think you may find this older thread contains some relevant information.

 

[GeneralEmployer]

Thanks, Aquafortis. That's exactly what I was looking for. I've read parts of that thread before, but never in its entirety. There's a lot of talk of individual brands for anybody else who is interested.

 

[DWFII]

Despite perhaps unintentionally apocryphal accounts to the contrary, done correctly...and all other things being equal...a HW shoe should be able to be resoled repeatedly--until the uppers wear out or the owner just gets tired of wearing a pair of shoes that are not as fashionable as they were decades ago.

If you truly believe the "edict"...and without reiterating all the salient reasons, I think you are justified in that belief...HW shoes virtually have to last through more resoles than GY. It's simply a matter of logic and hard, objective, material facts.

So, why the discrepancy in some accounts or some peoples experiences?

Well, first, it's correct to say that concepts like "quality" do indeed mean different things to different people. The same is true of a whole gamut of associated issues. That's why I have repeatedly stressed the the idea of "all things being equal." It is not logical nor rational nor even fair (if that's an issue) to compare the longevity of a HW shoe using a 12 iron insole cut from the shoulder of a good quality hide to a HW shoe using insole bend at 9 iron. Much less a leather insoles compared to leatherboard insoles. And insoles are just the beginning--the most obvious. The points of comparison are many

Second, people walk and wear shoes differently. In truth no two people, all things being equal, will walk a shoe the same way. Nor given the same shoes and the same circumstances, get...or expect...the same number of resoles. If nothing else, the will to faithfully and mindfully maintain (or neglect) a shoe varies wildly among people in general.

To truly appreciate your question / inquiry, you would have to control for factors that are fundamentally uncontrollable...just because people are people. When you come right down to it, the suggestion that HW shoes will not last any longer than RTW shoes, pivots off so many factors--from the choices of the shoemaker...right down to the first choice he/she makes when entering the Trade; to the choices of the consumer, to the physiological idiosyncrasies of each individual; to even, sad to say, the objectivity and fundamental honesty of those reporting. Never mind the factors that we can control for, such as the materials and the techniques.

 

[Aquafortis]

Thanks, Aquafortis. That's exactly what I was looking for. I've read parts of that thread before, but never in its entirety. There's a lot of talk of individual brands for anybody else who is interested.

Yes, it's quite an incredible thread for the depth and breadth of information and discussion. Thanks again @DWFII for that. I had discovered and bookmarked it several years back, and upon reviewing some of it last night, was reminded of what a great tome of information it is for those interested in shoe construction and artisanship. And after rereading some of the excellent pages on handwelting, I was reminded also that what I consider the "best" footwear in my closet (Edward Green, Bontoni, and Carlos Santos), are "just" Goodyear welted.

I also gained a renewed appreciation for the points the thread makes about perceived value, branding, marketing, and the stunning price variations among makers with such uncorrelated construction quality, such as Berluti (primarily Blake I believe) running north of $2K.

 

[GeneralEmployer]

Thanks again, @Aquafortis . That mega thread led me down a rabbit hole of more info than I could dream of.

Thank you so much @DWFII –– You've really contributed a wealth of knowledge to the forum. Thank you also for framing the issue so neatly. Going through all your posts, I've been able to piece together a RTW hierarchy according to your opinions (I know RTW brands can be a tedious subject for someone with your experience, but I have a lot of respect for your thoughts on these matters). I was able to piece together quite a bit. The only HW brand you haven't discussed at length is Enzo Bonafe. I'm wondering if you ever handled the brand. You've expressed passing admiration for their shoes, but do you have any thoughts on their standard of construction, even if its just from photos you've seen?

 

[Aquafortis]

Thanks again, @Aquafortis . That mega thread led me down a rabbit hole of more info than I could dream of.

Agreed. I'm looking forward to that thread making this shelter-in-places significantly more tolerable and edfiying.

Cheers.

 

[vmss]

I've been a reader of SF for a long time. While there's a lot of great information about hand welted (HW) shoes on this forum, there's not a lot of information in terms of what HW means for specific RTW brands. This is unfortunate, because when the luxury retail market collapses, I want to know what HW RTW shoe I'm going to order ten pairs of: I can almost see these pairs sitting somewhere in a European warehouse as I write this. But I need help: the vision is still a little hazy for me.

A quick note: During these difficult times, DWF's eternal edict has become an article of faith for me: "Every significant aspect of GY fails when compared to HW, Every significant aspect." I've found myself repeating these words before I go to bed each night. For the purposes of this thread, this shall be the final word about the virtues of GY v. HW in the abstract.

HW RTW Brands

We live in a world full of marketing gimmicks: 'Handwelted' –– and things associated with hand welting, such as a superior footbed, increased longevity, etc –– means different things for different makers. I'd like to go through the construction quality of different brands that offer RTW HW shoes, and what, if anything, it all means. I'll try to get this thread going with some questions that I feel have not been definitively answered yet. It could be that I'm asking the wrong questions, but I'm just trying to get people talking who actually own a lot of HW and GY RTW shoes.

• How many more resoles can the more well-known HW brands handle when compared to their GY counterparts? Many forum members/bloggers claim that RTW HW shoes will get you only one or two more resoles. Some even go so far as to say that despite being able to resoled more, the functional life of a RTW HW shoe is essentially the same as RTW GY shoe. This seems wrong if the HW process is followed faithfully. Do RTW brands follow the process faithfully? For instance, all things being equal, how many more resoles would an EB shoe get over a Carmina shoe, if any?

• I've read some cryptic comments on this forum that some HW brands, like EB for one, do "bizarre things" that negate the benefits of hand welting. I'm not taking about stuff like clicking, but fundamental construction methods that are at odds with the spirit of hand welting. Is this really true of EB or any other well-known HW maker? If so, what exactly is being done wrong?

• How do your RTW GY shoes compare in comfort to your RTW HW shoes? I'm aware of the lighter weight and flex of many HW shoes, but does this translate to truly added comfort? This has been discussed a lot actually, but not in terms of comparisons between brands, or making allowances for differences between lasts (the thing that will most affect comfort). For anybody with a large collection of RTW, is your most comfortable shoe GY or HW? (I know it's easier to get fitted for GY, and there are many other variable at play, so please factor this to your analysis).

Please add to this very brief RTW hand welted shoes list below. (There's many makers that do reputable MTO HW options, like Sons of Henrey, but I'm trying to keep the list limited to RTW makers that regularly stock HW shoes in anticipation of our pending economic collapse):

Meermin (Linea Maestro)
Enzo Bonafe
Vass
Antonio Meccariello

What bizarre things did you hear about EB?

 

[willyto]

You can add Saint Crispin's to that list.

Personally after having handled Meermin (Linea Maestro) , Vass and Saint Crispin's there's clearly different levels in that list of handwelted shoes.

Unless you're really tight on budget and are focused on having only Handwelted shoes(I aim for that) I wouldn't pick the Linea Maestro because although they're handwelted in China and then finished here in Spain so they can say Made in Spain the overall quality just isn't the same you would fine on the western european makers. The leather isn't good enough, the finishing is not as clean, the comfort is definitely not the same, they're a pain to break in(Literally a pain...the stiffeners are so tough), the insole doesn't get as comfortable as the other handwelted shoes(I blame the leather they use) etc.

My handwelted shoes are more comfortable in general compared to my goodyear welted shoes because of the thicker insoles, I notice specially when walking in them a lot and standing for hours during the day. I've walked close to 20km a day in my Vass double leather sole shoes without any discomfort while doing half of that in a goodyear welted pair of shoes has caused me pain in the feet and legs.

I can't explain the particulars as to why, it just happens.

Also worth saying that paying more money for goodyear welted to me just doesn't seem right, I don't really care for how much they can embelish the descriptions of their range of products with hand this hand that when in the end one of the most important details of the shoe is done the suboptimal way by choice. All the handwork done is purely cosmetic for the most part and they cost the same or more than a pair of Vass (more rustic finishing, less dressy) or Saint Crispin's for example that includes all the handwork the other brands who opt for goodyear welting do plus the handwelting(They machine stitch the sole though)

Worth sharing the videos again:

​

Don't get me wrong, the other brands like Gaziano&Girling, new Foster and Son line, Edward Green,etc do great job but they're very expensive shoes with hand finishing that at the end of the day are still being goodyear welted and for such a price to me personally that isn't worth it. It feels like all the handwork is wasted on a suboptimal construction.

 

[DWFII]

Thank you so much @DWFII –– You've really contributed a wealth of knowledge to the forum. Thank you also for framing the issue so neatly. Going through all your posts, I've been able to piece together a RTW hierarchy according to your opinions (I know RTW brands can be a tedious subject for someone with your experience, but I have a lot of respect for your thoughts on these matters). I was able to piece together quite a bit. The only HW brand you haven't discussed at length is Enzo Bonafe. I'm wondering if you ever handled the brand. You've expressed passing admiration for their shoes, but do you have any thoughts on their standard of construction, even if its just from photos you've seen?

Actually, since becoming a member here, I have tried very hard to not discuss or critique any other shoemaker...RTW or bespoke. I feel like I have adhered to that stricture pretty faithfully except perhaps in my very early posts here.

I don't recall myself making any mention of, or referring to, any other maker in the Shoemaking thread. I don't recall addressing any remarks to questions posted by others which specifically referred to any other maker.

Yes, I will critique technique but only in the context of technique. And if you or anyone else associate those techniques with a particular maker so be it. But the instant someone mentions, or asks me to comment about a specific brand or a maker, I back right out of the conversation, if I possibly can...that's been my policy. (Of course if I can continue to discuss a particular technique without referencing a maker, I will)

If I have slipped...and for all the times I, undoubtedly, have slipped...I beg pardon.

That said, I would prefer to remain as faithful to the principle as I can.

 

[Alan Bee]

You can add Saint Crispin's to that list.

Personally after having handled Meermin (Linea Maestro) , Vass and Saint Crispin's there's clearly different levels in that list of handwelted shoes.

Unless you're really tight on budget and are focused on having only Handwelted shoes(I aim for that) I wouldn't pick the Linea Maestro because although they're handwelted in China and then finished here in Spain so they can say Made in Spain the overall quality just isn't the same you would fine on the western european makers. The leather isn't good enough, the finishing is not as clean, the comfort is definitely not the same, they're a pain to break in(Literally a pain...the stiffeners are so tough), the insole doesn't get as comfortable as the other handwelted shoes(I blame the leather they use) etc.

My handwelted shoes are more comfortable in general compared to my goodyear welted shoes because of the thicker insoles, I notice specially when walking in them a lot and standing for hours during the day. I've walked close to 20km a day in my Vass double leather sole shoes without any discomfort while doing half of that in a goodyear welted pair of shoes has caused me pain in the feet and legs.

I can't explain the particulars as to why, it just happens.

Also worth saying that paying more money for goodyear welted to me just doesn't seem right, I don't really care for how much they can embelish the descriptions of their range of products with hand this hand that when in the end one of the most important details of the shoe is done the suboptimal way by choice. All the handwork done is purely cosmetic for the most part and they cost the same or more than a pair of Vass (more rustic finishing, less dressy) or Saint Crispin's for example that includes all the handwork the other brands who opt for goodyear welting do plus the handwelting(They machine stitch the sole though)

Worth sharing the videos again:

​

Don't get me wrong, the other brands like Gaziano&Girling, new Foster and Son line, Edward Green,etc do great job but they're very expensive shoes with hand finishing that at the end of the day are still being goodyear welted and for such a price to me personally that isn't worth it. It feels like all the handwork is wasted on a suboptimal construction.

100% in agreement here ......

I could never explain why.....

I can wear my St. Crispin shoes a whole day without feeling I have anything on my feet. My Edward Green's are another story. And this is coming from a fellow who's worn EG exclusively since 2005. Granted, the St. Crispins are all built on a custom last. I took good advice and went for the custom last (and trial shoes) from the get go. I even had a separate pair (trial shoes) made for loafers.

Currently in the process of converting my entire rotation to St. Crispins. Its taken 2 years and counting now. Makes me feel like an idiot for the small fortune I've spent on EG shoes over a decade plus ....

I will say though, EG leather is beyond compare. It ages so beautifully and takes a shine like a demon ....

Alan Bee