The perils of overdoing it.

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by Manton

The northeastern US gets much colder in the winter than London. Heavy cloth here is perfectly rational and appropriate.

When it's cold enough to wear ultra heavy flannels in the NE USA you need a very heavy topcoat. When you go inside your heated office building you take your topcoat off and if wearing a 19oz three piece flannel suit would swelter. I have no problem with your 14oz flannel it's the heavier stuff I have a problem with.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

...
Just for reference and because I like to talk about myself, here is what I would consider a normal tweed getup I'd wear in San Francisco. The tweed is perhaps 16oz, and the flannel pants relativly light. Probably 12-14 tops. I imagine that it is a fabric you would consider over the top, but I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable wearing it. http://www.styleforum.net/showpost.p...ostcount=15784

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Dewey

Plaid sportcoats in general are pretty rare these days. A few months ago I sat in O'Hare for eight hours and counted only one plaid sportcoat -- and this was in the kind of very muted pattern peddled by Joseph A. Bank. But I will see them, esp. on older men and younger men, and esp. in tweeds in the winter, here and there, in any given week. There's a contradiction in the OP and subsequent conversation. On one hand, the OP addresses the response of the general public to the dandy's clothes. On the other hand, the following conversation concerns what can only be a dandy's perception of the appropriateness of certain fabrics and patterns in certain places. There is no fair way to characterize the general public in the USA as having any sense that certain tweed patterns are only for certain settings. If it is cold outside, you can wear the loudest tweed in almost any corner of the USA and never will the general public regard this as outlandish or "overdoing it." So the objection to the tweed, following the OP, is somewhat comical. In the midwest, any pocket square is more likely to trigger a widespread perception of "overdoing it" than any particular tweed.
Well, there are dandies, and then there are dandies. This dandy likes to impress both the mainstream and other men who like to dress. There are other dandies who just like shock value, and others who want to be archaic, right down to the moustaches. i dont necessarily believe a bold check is shocking, i dont necessarily think tweed is passe but i think the two together create a great impact which isnt always desirable. It's a fine line. Personally, I think clothes should be used for effect, just like in the movies but not copied exactly from the movies. Other people believe that clothes should be a personal constant no matter where you are. Lifestyles play a role. If you are a corporate lawyer then wearing a tweed suit with matching tweed deerstalker and overcoat with a monocle and imperial moustache may not be a advisable but if you own a rare book store, it's marvelous. But if you ARE a corporate lawyer, i see nothing wrong with wearing the same tweed in a wosted cashmere except only as a jacket. As for certain bells and whistles detailing. i consider the vast majority of those to be something to avoid until you really know what you want. Other touches are simply natty, like the single piece back for soft goods but your tailor has to have the skill to execute it right. i sometimes forget how spoiled I am that my tailor has the guts to make just about any fabric in just about any way.

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Luicano Barbera wears cashmere sport coats, flannel trousers and dark brown suede shoes year round, but I suppose his style is not to be emulated.

He doesn't live in Manhattan, Baltimore or Atlanta as far as I know, but Milan which is a Northern Italian city similar to London in Temperatures. I'd say you could get by with this rig out year round in either place.

 

[Mr T]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

I've been visiting this site regularly now for about a month and I'm astonished at the levels of knowledge and expertise that exist about all aspects of men's clothing and footwear.

Welcome, and congratulations for not only having 275 posts in a month but also for traveling in time from July 2006 when you joined the forum. You have only aged a month whereas we have aged almost two years.

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

Well, there are dandies, and then there are dandies. This dandy likes to impress both the mainstream and other men who like to dress. There are other dandies who just like shock value, and others who want to be archaic, right down to the moustaches.

i dont necessarily believe a bold check is shocking, i dont necessarily think tweed is passe but i think the two together create a great impact which isnt always desirable. It's a fine line. Personally, I think clothes should be used for effect, just like in the movies but not copied exactly from the movies. Other people believe that clothes should be a personal constant no matter where you are.

Lifestyles play a role. If you are a corporate lawyer then wearing a tweed suit with matching tweed deerstalker and overcoat with a monocle and imperial moustache may not be a advisable but if you own a rare book store, it's marvelous. But if you ARE a corporate lawyer, i see nothing wrong with wearing the same tweed in a wosted cashmere except only as a jacket.

As for certain bells and whistles detailing. i consider the vast majority of those to be something to avoid until you really know what you want. Other touches are simply natty, like the single piece back for soft goods but your tailor has to have the skill to execute it right. i sometimes forget how spoiled I am that my tailor has the guts to make just about any fabric in just about any way.

I wear a slightly archaic Moustache. Black/grey brushed to sides but more Anthony Eden than Lord Kitchener. You want to watch it FNB stirring up the old fashioned moustache wearing classes. You don't want to create any more enemies. LOL.

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by Mr T

Welcome, and congratulations for not only having 275 posts in a month but also for traveling in time from July 2006 when you joined the forum. You have only aged a month whereas we have aged almost two years.

I have only recently had the time to focus on this properly.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

When it's cold enough to wear ultra heavy flannels in the NE USA you need a very heavy topcoat. When you go inside your heated office building you take your topcoat off and if wearing a 19oz three piece flannel suit would swelter. I have no problem with your 14oz flannel it's the heavier stuff I have a problem with.

Really, though, shouldn't this be left up the individual person and his constitution? I'm sure there are people who get cold easily who might love a heavy flannel. Why begrudge them that?

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Just for reference and because I like to talk about myself, here is what I would consider a normal tweed getup I'd wear in San Francisco. The tweed is perhaps 16oz, and the flannel pants relativly light. Probably 12-14 tops. I imagine that it is a fabric you would consider over the top, but I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable wearing it.

http://www.styleforum.net/showpost.p...ostcount=15784

I had a 16oz three piece tweed suit I sent to the thrift store about a month ago. I bought it about 20 years ago in London, it still fitted me, I loved myself in it, used to wear it with brown Racing style trilby, brown brogues, tattersall check shirt and pocket watch. Unfortunately, I'd probably only worn it half a dozen time over here although I used wear it sometimes in the UK on visits. I only have one tweed suit left and it's a bit lighter but even that is under scrutiny.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

However, since by definition all visitors to the site are suffering from an idee fixe I suppose it's to be expected that excess creeps in from time to time so it's perhaps appropriate to say a word about it.

John, this is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it.

Originally Posted by John Ellis

As it happens I think tweed suits and jackets are particularly difficult because they can so easily to slip over into self parody in an urban environment. That doesn't mean loud tweeds are beyond the pale, just that some loud tweeds can be.

I admire your plea for subtlety in the visuals of fabric and their various combinations. I basically don't differ from it...even though you don't like the London Lounge gun club check and I do. And I do understand the aesthetic basis of your objection to it.

Tweed is an interesting topic for me, because such work that I do is in an environment in which country wear took over at the beginning of the last century. It's tweedy here. Like most places, mass fashion and mall-wear dominate today, with few men in coat and tie, but what vestiges of tailored dress remain center around country wear, rather than on the city lounge suit. In such an environment, a wider range of tweed is tolerable than you might sanction personally because it is in the bones of the place.

A few months ago, I had a wonderful series of large scale black and white photographs of some of my predecessors at work in the 1940s and 1950s made up and mounted by our museum for display in a gallery outside my office suite. All the guys were in tweeds; none in city lounge suits. Since the photos are black and white, I could not tell you if you would praise or condemn them.

- B

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by Manton

Really, though, shouldn't this be left up the individual person and his constitution? I'm sure there are people who get cold easily who might love a heavy flannel. Why begrudge them that?

Of course it is up to the individual person. We're having a philosophical discussion about when an individual when making such personal choices might do harm to his persona in a professional or social environment. For example I absolutely love those 1930's style grey trilbies with the broad black band that FDR used to wear. And I don't cop out, I wear them with the brim turned up all around which looks very archaic but no more so than say your db waistcoat. Both these looks hover on the edge of extreme eccentricity but just about stay on the right side. However, some would think us slightly odd. Well maybe mine is a bit odder. My position is that an wearer of over heavy tweeds or flannels is probably going to be perceived as over the line a bit as well as being uncomfortable probably. I've reached the stage where I don't care if people consider my choice of headgear slighty eccentric sometimes others may not have that luxury.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

I had a 16oz three piece tweed suit I sent to the thrift store about a month ago. I bought it about 20 years ago in London, it still fitted me, I loved myself in it, used to wear it with brown Racing style trilby, brown brogues, tattersall check shirt and pocket watch. Unfortunately, I'd probably only worn it half a dozen time over here although I used wear it sometimes in the UK on visits. I only have one tweed suit left and it's a bit lighter but even that is under scrutiny.
FWIW, that is a tweed sportcoat, and not a suit. While I like the idea of a tweed suit, they don't fit my lifestyle. To me, a tweed sportcoat on a Friday or Saturday is stylish. A tweed suit, in the same circumstance, is silly.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

I wear a slightly archaic Moustache. Black/grey brushed to sides but more Anthony Eden than Lord Kitchener.
I appreciate this look but I think it might have an overly powerful effect for most.

Originally Posted by John Ellis

You want to watch it FNB stirring up the old fashioned moustache wearing classes. You don't want to create any more enemies. LOL.
I doubt if i need worry about you, none of my enemies have interesting, personal style.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Dewey

Plaid sportcoats in general are pretty rare these days. A few months ago I sat in O'Hare for eight hours and counted only one plaid sportcoat -- and this was in the kind of very muted pattern peddled by Joseph A. Bank. But I will see them, esp. on older men and younger men, and esp. in tweeds in the winter, here and there, in any given week.

There's a contradiction in the OP and subsequent conversation. On one hand, the OP addresses the response of the general public to the dandy's clothes. On the other hand, the following conversation concerns what can only be a dandy's perception of the appropriateness of certain fabrics and patterns in certain places. There is no fair way to characterize the general public in the USA as having any sense that certain tweed patterns are only for certain settings. If it is cold outside, you can wear the loudest tweed in almost any corner of the USA and never will the general public regard this as outlandish or "overdoing it."

So the objection to the tweed, following the OP, is somewhat comical. In the midwest, any pocket square is more likely to trigger a widespread perception of "overdoing it" than any particular tweed.

I do not have much to add to this except to note that it rings true to me.

- B

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

Of course it is up to the individual person. We're having a philosophical discussion about when an individual when making such personal choices might do harm to his persona in a professional or social environment. For example I absolutely love those 1930's style grey trilbies with the broad black band that FDR used to wear. And I don't cop out, I wear them with the brim turned up all around which looks very archaic but no more so than say your db waistcoat. Both these looks hover on the edge of extreme eccentricity but just about stay on the right side. However, some would think us slightly odd. Well maybe mine is a bit odder. My position is that an wearer of over heavy tweeds or flannels is probably going to be perceived as over the line a bit as well as being uncomfortable probably. I've reached the stage where I don't care if people consider my choice of headgear slighty eccentric sometimes others may not have that luxury.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion of taste. I'm not sure how a discussion of practical ramifications can be particularly philosophical or even relevant. I'd be shocked if it turned out that people here are making bad style choices because they're trying to look more professional.