The Oxford-Shoe-Worn-Casually Appreciation Thread

[yorkshire pud]

I could be wrong, but would seem as though all those in favor of oxfords worn casually are from the UK or Commonwealth. If so, regional differences are perfectly understandable.

I don't think British people are as puritanical about "the rules", we follow them up to a point, but we don't really respect them ?

 

[acapaca]

I’d imagine we have a decent amount of evidence if we look that this isn’t the case. Maybe not as much in CM but when we cross over to the incredibly broadly named SWD we see this completely fall apart but from grunge to punk, boho chic, workwear, western wear etc.

Well, it's just one theory. And it's certainly not something I came up with.

How/why do you think fashions spread/change?

 

[ValidusLA]

@Sirguywhosmiles @yorkshire pud too many messages to quote individually so I'll say a few things:

1) I am not wholly ignorant of general British history. European history was my undergraduate major, with specific focuses on the British and Russian Empires.

2) In high school, my parents used to have study abroad students from Europe stay at the house over summer. Mostly Italians and Spaniards, but when I was 16, a cool guy who lived on the banks of the Mersey river stayed with us and got me into football. So that tells you what I think of Manchester.

3) I was in no way impugning Yorkshire. My 15 year hope is to snap up a country house in another country. I am much more a field mouse than a city rat. Current ranking goes: 1) Mountains of Kyoto, 2) Loire Valley, 3) Yorkshire. As my Japanese is non-existent, and my French grows worse by the year, (3) becomes more and more attractive.

That being all said, my original point was just that those who do not live and move among a certain crowd I don't think are really comment on what that crowd does or doesn't do, because they just don't know.

Earlier in this thread chain (maybe the last one, can't remember), someone posted a photo of the cast of Gossip Girl as an example of private school kids breaking the rules of fashion blah blah. I commented, as somone who has only ever been educated in private schools, that kids don't dress that way in them. That is an outsider's conception.

You don't even have to go 3 hours by train, you just have to go to the next neighborhood over where no one attends private school for them to probably buy into that Hollywood conceptualization.

TLR - The view looking into a group is often distorted, and looks different from within.

 

[yorkshire pud]

Well, it's just one theory. And it's certainly not something I came up with.

How/why do you think fashions spread/change?

Evolution (not the biological kind) but the kind that took you from the Wright Bros to Apollo 11 landing on the moon within several decades, it's relentless!!!

New technologies replace the old (textiles/fasteners/manufacturing) some better, some cheaper

"Global Communications" and cultures mixing more easily and the exchange of ideas

As poverty is slowly eradicated new consumers emerge with different aspirations to the previous generations

Lifestyles have changed in the past two years thanks to Covid-19 with many people now working from home

I understand the longing for a bygone age (for me it's automobiles) but you can't live in that world exclusively, you have to embrace some modernity.

For example

You can have a Retro Car in the 21st century, but with good brakes and A/C that just weren't possible in the past

 

[yorkshire pud]

@Sirguywhosmiles @yorkshire pud too many messages to quote individually so I'll say a few things:

1) I am not wholly ignorant of general British history. European history was my undergraduate major, with specific focuses on the British and Russian Empires.

2) In high school, my parents used to have study abroad students from Europe stay at the house over summer. Mostly Italians and Spaniards, but when I was 16, a cool guy who lived on the banks of the Mersey river stayed with us and got me into football. So that tells you what I think of Manchester.

3) I was in no way impugning Yorkshire. My 15 year hope is to snap up a country house in another country. I am much more a field mouse than a city rat. Current ranking goes: 1) Mountains of Kyoto, 2) Loire Valley, 3) Yorkshire. As my Japanese is non-existent, and my French grows worse by the year, (3) becomes more and more attractive.

That being all said, my original point was just that those who do not live and move among a certain crowd I don't think are really comment on what that crowd does or doesn't do, because they just don't know.

Earlier in this thread chain (maybe the last one, can't remember), someone posted a photo of the cast of Gossip Girl as an example of private school kids breaking the rules of fashion blah blah. I commented, as somone who has only ever been educated in private schools, that kids don't dress that way in them. That is an outsider's conception.

You don't even have to go 3 hours by train, you just have to go to the next neighborhood over where no one attends private school for them to probably buy into that Hollywood conceptualization.

TLR - The view looking into a group is often distorted, and looks different from within.

Liverpool, Everton or Tranmere Rovers??

 

[Sirguywhosmiles]

@Sirguywhosmiles @yorkshire pud too many messages to quote individually so I'll say a few things:

1) I am not wholly ignorant of general British history. European history was my undergraduate major, with specific focuses on the British and Russian Empires.

2) In high school, my parents used to have study abroad students from Europe stay at the house over summer. Mostly Italians and Spaniards, but when I was 16, a cool guy who lived on the banks of the Mersey river stayed with us and got me into football. So that tells you what I think of Manchester.

3) I was in no way impugning Yorkshire. My 15 year hope is to snap up a country house in another country. I am much more a field mouse than a city rat. Current ranking goes: 1) Mountains of Kyoto, 2) Loire Valley, 3) Yorkshire. As my Japanese is non-existent, and my French grows worse by the year, (3) becomes more and more attractive.

That being all said, my original point was just that those who do not live and move among a certain crowd I don't think are really comment on what that crowd does or doesn't do, because they just don't know.

Earlier in this thread chain (maybe the last one, can't remember), someone posted a photo of the cast of Gossip Girl as an example of private school kids breaking the rules of fashion blah blah. I commented, as somone who has only ever been educated in private schools, that kids don't dress that way in them. That is an outsider's conception.

You don't even have to go 3 hours by train, you just have to go to the next neighborhood over where no one attends private school for them to probably buy into that Hollywood conceptualization.

TLR - The view looking into a group is often distorted, and looks different from within.

I really shouldn't be getting stuck in like this, because I'm new here.

But...
@yorkshire pud was not really speaking about how private school kids dress, or the royal family, or any such small subset; he was saying "British people don't wear loafers (much)".
I think @dieworkwear's counter argument (basically "who cares what the average British man wears, let's talk about what the great British dressers wore" if I understand it correctly) to be more convincing that yours, which despite your professed love of Yorkshire seems to boil down to " How would you know, stuck oop there with your flat cap and your whippet"; again, if I understand it correctly.

Once more, if I have picked things up wrongly, I apologise.

 

[ValidusLA]

Liverpool, Everton or Tranmere Rovers??

Liverpool. Which 20 years ago was less fun, but is quite fun now.

I really shouldn't be getting stuck in like this, because I'm new here.

But...
@yorkshire pud was not really speaking about how private school kids dress, or the royal family, or any such small subset; he was saying "British people don't wear loafers (much)".
I think @dieworkwear's counter argument (basically "who cares what the average British man wears, let's talk about what the great British dressers wore" if I understand it correctly) to be more convincing that yours, which despite your professed love of Yorkshire seems to boil down to " How would you know, stuck oop there with your flat cap and your whippet"; again, if I understand it correctly.

Once more, if I have picked things up wrongly, I apologise.

Not wrong, but not the whole story.

My question was originally what qualifies him to make the declaration. Based off previous posts (location being only a very small part).

I have a friend from college who left the UK to come study here. He's an Etonian. He wears loafers often. Perhaps you would adjudge him not British enough, as his mother is Japanese.

 

[yorkshire pud]

I really shouldn't be getting stuck in like this, because I'm new here.

But...
@yorkshire pud was not really speaking about how private school kids dress, or the royal family, or any such small subset; he was saying "British people don't wear loafers (much)".
I think @dieworkwear's counter argument (basically "who cares what the average British man wears, let's talk about what the great British dressers wore" if I understand it correctly) to be more convincing that yours, which despite your professed love of Yorkshire seems to boil down to " How would you know, stuck oop there with your flat cap and your whippet"; again, if I understand it correctly.

Once more, if I have picked things up wrongly, I apologise.

Don't worry, I don't take any offence. I understand exactly what Validus means. and I enjoy chatting to him to be honest because he is polite and doesn't assume anything, and he is right I know nothing about Black Tie or London High society (but I know they are such a small percentage of the population it makes no odds))

How would I know?? Being so far from the action??

I just do is the real answer (and it was more or less validated by our London friend with the nice Batman Rolex and tastefully done Loafers)

Loafers aren't to my taste and not as popular in the UK as they are in the USA
but I can appreciate they can look good (with socks) on some gentlemen ?

 

[Sirguywhosmiles]

Liverpool. Which 20 years ago was less fun, but is quite fun now.



Not wrong, but not the whole story.

My question was originally what qualifies him to make the declaration. Based off previous posts (location being only a very small part).

I have a friend from college who left the UK to come study here. He's an Etonian. He wears loafers often. Perhaps you would adjudge him not British enough, as his mother is Japanese.

I have no real opinion on the British and loafers, not being British myself. Your comparison between Missouri and Yorkshire is what drew my attention, and certainly gave the impression that location was a significant part of your query; his lack of attendance at Black tie events being the other main evedience presented.

I am not sure what your friend's mother's nationality has to do with it,and I am interested to learn why you might think I would have an issue with it?

 

[yorkshire pud]

Liverpool. Which 20 years ago was less fun, but is quite fun now.



Not wrong, but not the whole story.

My question was originally what qualifies him to make the declaration. Based off previous posts (location being only a very small part).

I have a friend from college who left the UK to come study here. He's an Etonian. He wears loafers often. Perhaps you would adjudge him not British enough, as his mother is Japanese.

They are playing some good football finally?

I like Liverpool (Beatles Fan) and the Football Casual style that emerged from the city in the late 70s has definitely endured and you still see it a lot outside the Capital

 

[ValidusLA]

I have no real opinion on the British and loafers, not being British myself. Your comparison between Missouri and Yorkshire is what drew my attention, and certainly gave the impression that location was a significant part of your query; his lack of attendance at Black tie events being the other main evedience presented.

I am not sure what your friend's mother's nationality has to do with it,and I am interested to learn why you might think I would have an issue with it?

Probably shouldn't have brought it up - just because he has always expressed much more prejudice for his background coming from that side of the pond than this one.

I would also like to clarify, when I said "you" I didn't specifically mean you-Sirguywhosmiles, I meant "you" more as general British citizen who might read this. Just echoing his sentiments expressed to me.

Anyway, probably generally poorly considered, and was typed while in a hurry at a coffee shop. Apologies if offense was given.

 

[ValidusLA]

Don't worry, I don't take any offence. I understand exactly what Validus means. and I enjoy chatting to him to be honest because he is polite and doesn't assume anything, and he is right I know nothing about Black Tie or London High society (but I know they are such a small percentage of the population it makes no odds))

How would I know?? Being so far from the action??

I just do is the real answer (and it was more or less validated by our London friend with the nice Batman Rolex and tastefully done Loafers)

Loafers aren't to my taste and not as popular in the UK as they are in the USA
but I can appreciate they can look good (with socks) on some gentlemen ?

Thank you. I honestly worry I'm way more strident than I mean to be on here most of the time.

I read this comment as I was driving and was mulling response for a while.

I think part of the issue I run into on SF is a standard problem with online communication. Not being able to see the facial expressions of an interlocutor, or hear the tone used, makes it so much harder to read the intent of a statement.

Earlier on another thread @yorkshire pud and I had some crossover, where eventually it was clear he was "taking the piss" and it was all meant in good fun. I think by now I "get" the direction he is coming from on this board, which is mostly from a point of playfulness. All good in my book.

Similarly when @dieworkwear talks about style or traditions of CM, I think I usually "get" where he is coming from. I think he genuinely has dual interests in:
A) Appreciating, promoting, and discussing that tradition and style of dress
B) Educating newcomers and veterans alike about the above (and other subjects).
So while I may not always agree with him, since I feel like I "get" why he's here, and that he's mostly writing in good faith, I am much more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt and lend credence to what he's saying.

I don't always "get" what people are trying to do here.

I feel like there are an enormous number of people here just here to talk about their stuff and get clapped at.

I feel like there are people here simply to try to stick their finger in other peoples' eyes.

I feel like there are people here simply to preen.

Maybe this is totally a personal standpoint. Maybe I'm off base. But I feel like much of the trouble that often arises in discussions like this comes from the perspective of people not "getting" each others standpoint. And often because one (or more) parties don't actually have one, and are simply here to argue.

 

[UrbanComposition]

I feel like I’ve explained my base of beliefs before, but just in case someone new pops in:

Depending on your budget, lot in life, environment, culture, etc, there are so many different styles to wear that you could spend a lifetime exploring each one and theoretically get quite good at it. I’m all for that, and actually strongly encourage it as a first step, since it serves as a solid foundation upon which to experiment. This applies to classic menswear especially, but also many other styles.

After learning how things historically go together, one can use that foundation as a basis for their modern adaptation of dress. Perhaps you feel silly wearing something directly pulled out of an Apparel Arts ad from 1932, but based on them, you choose your outfit to be more aligned with current tastes.

Then you start breaking the rules (more like principles, just to clarify). For example, there was an old saying “no brown in town.” Obviously that no longer applies, but the principle of wearing situationally-appropriate clothes still applies.

Naturally, you can—and should—wear whatever you want. However, this shouldn’t be an excuse to throw clothes together haphazardly if you expect some kind of cohesive appearance. Even within the relatively narrow confines of CM, you can still have a closetful of variety and still be well within what is considered acceptably well-dressed.

Stylish, even.

I’ll go so far as to conditionally allow oxfords worn casually with chinos or jeans but I’m still waiting for a decent example. If you don’t care to look well dressed, that’s fine. It really doesn’t matter, anyway. Scofflaws often make up for their shortcomings by their charming humor.

 

[ValidusLA]

Naturally, you can—and should—wear whatever you want.

Appreciate the post and your online content in general.

Just to address the above part of your statement. I agree with the principle though not when taken to 100% application.

I think 'wear whatever you want' is a great maxim all things being equal, but I also think people should pay some deference to their situation. And I mean that in terms of social graces and manners, not what is "appropriate" or even traditional.

If someone invites you to a cocktail party, I think coming in jeans and a t shirt is disrespectful. Not everyone will agree. In Los Angeles, god knows its pretty common. I think if you attend a BT event, even marked "Optional," one should do their best to dress in Black Tie. I think if you get invited to a beach BBQ and come in CM with a tie, even if that's what you want, you are kind of being a jerk.

 

[UrbanComposition]

^^ I agree.