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The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY, AND F

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    You probably have what I have: the new-loomed chambray. It is most definitely chambray. You can tell by looking at the ends. It just isn't the old loosey-goosey stuff.
     
  2. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Well-Known Member

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    I guessing we have the same two cloths (both from ASW?).

    I don't know if these photos are of any use whatsoever in identifying these but here's the chambray I have--
    (white balance is effed but shows the texture)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I've taken to calling this one voile (because that's what it looks like to me) but I think Will calls it 'new chambray' or something like that.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    T4 / :foo: - you guys are talking about something alltogether different, right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That stuff with the Canon lens cap is the SG voile. It is not chambray. You can tell by looking at the yarn ends. Will from ASW called it "new chambray," at one point, which confuses the discussion.

    What I have is actually chambray from SG. However, it is not the rough stuff T4 has. It is a smoother, more refined shirting. I've been calling it "new-loomed chambray" or "new chambray."
     
  4. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Well-Known Member

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    Quote:At what point did he threaten to shoot himself (or you)?
     
    4 people like this.
  5. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha.

    Sorry for the TL / DR but which has the polyester? The new-loomed / smoother stuff that you have or the ruff stuff that I have?


    Have you considered a nice end-on-end? An Alumo 120s or 140s? I probably wear that stuff 60% of the time between the two lightest shades - goes with just about anything IMO.
     
  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    You know, you can always just block my posts and not have to deal with me. I dare you. I don't know if that will make my threads invisible to you, so you may just have to use willpower there.


    The new-loomed, smooth stuff is 100% cotton. The new-loomed rough stuff, which you have, is part polyester. The old-loomed rough stuff, which T4 has, is supposedly 100% cotton.

    I compared my SG chambray to the Alumo 120s end-on-end. I like the look of the chambray better, but could be happy with the Alumo as an alternative. It's obviously nice stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  7. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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    whatever mine is, there are definitely white yarns in the weft.

    I don't think you can be definitive about Cantab's because the pic only shows one edge, the white would(could) be in the other direction.

    oops NVM, re-checked pic
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Manton, your stuff is almost certainly the same as mine. It is smooth, full-width, and true chambray (white weft, blue warp), correct? Like I said, Eugene said you brought in stuff the same as mine before.
     
  9. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Well-Known Member

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    Just saw this.

    I like the look of the stuff you have (on the right, right?)

    I hate the stuff I have (on the left, right?)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  10. mactire

    mactire Well-Known Member

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  11. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Well-Known Member

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    Nope, I have no desire to block you. You typically have interesting posts. But I will call you out when you get ridiculous.
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    I believe so, yes.
    They are fundamentally different kinds of shirting. Voile is open weave, with high twist yarns. Like the fresco of shirting. The idea is to keep you cool by decreasing weight and increasing ventilation. Chambray is a straightforward plain-weave shirting. It would be like regular old poplin if not for the specific colors of its weft and warp.
    Oxford is completely different from chambray. Different weaves.
    Your commentary on my commentary is it's own sort of pollution. Maybe I should block you?
     
  13. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Well-Known Member

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    Uh, sure.
     
  14. poorsod

    poorsod Well-Known Member

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    I am starting to think the contrary, that voile and chambray are the same thing in different weights or with different thickness threads.

    For example:


    Also

    From Will's blog when even the SG weaver thought Will wanted the voile when he asked for chambray

    http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2010/10/lost-in-translation.html

    These responses from pros in the industry suggest that chambray and voile are at least close cousins, if not variations of the same thing.
     
  15. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Except, this is blatantly false. People in the trade are not always as precise as you'd think they'd be. The vast majority of Geneva's customers would never think to even utter the word "chambray" when ordering shirts, and chambray is not a typical dress shirting. So, it makes sense that a shirtmaker might not know its exact definition--it isn't really relevant to him. Just ask any car enthusiast who tries to have an informed discussion with a car dealer. Then tell me that people in the trade always know better! I once watched a watch dealer at a high-end watch shop in Manhattan explain that a tourbillion is a feature that means you never have to wind the watch.

    Both voile and chambray are plain woven, yes. But voile would not be voile if it didn't have an open weave and a high-twist yarns. Chambrays don't have those two features. Hence, they are different in fundamental ways that don't specifically have to do with weight.


    Except, SG itself never called its voile "chambray." Who can say what communications happened between Will and SG that caused the confusion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  16. poorsod

    poorsod Well-Known Member

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    Eugene (I don't remember his last name) and Stephen Kempson, both pros, thinking along the same lines. Also Benjamin Simonnot thinking that Will wanted voile when he asked for chambray. Circumstantial evidence perhaps, but the more of it there is, the more unlikely that it is happenstance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  17. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Why are you relying on circumstantial evidence when you have direct evidence? Look at any piece of chambray. What do they all have in common? They are plain-woven. The weft is always white. The warp is always a single color. Voile, as you know, does not always have that color combination. A piece of chambray with warp and weft in the same color is exactly the same as regular poplin. So, are you also saying voile is just lighter weight poplin?

    Raphael once claimed he invented spalla camicia, except he called them "water drop" shoulders and they never caught on. He is in the trade, too.
     
  18. poorsod

    poorsod Well-Known Member

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    So why are they consistently confused for one another, even by pros in the field? I suspect there is something else that we are not getting. The story is incomplete.
     
  19. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Because chambray is not traditionally a dress shirting. There is much less familiarity with it.

    Yet, the physical differences between it and voile are obvious if one really cares to find them. Just examine up-close. One is open-weave, the other is not.

    Anyway, Eugene and Kempson were not speaking with any certainty. They were clearly speculating and really didn't know what to make of what I brought in. In fact, Eugene commented on how heavy the shirting is--much heavier than the typical Alumo poplin. So, if that's true, how could chambray possibly be a middleweight cloth between voile and poplin? Makes no sense.

    I think the bottom-line is to not make gods out of our tailors. Mariano is as tasteful and knowledgeable on these things as any man I can think of. Yet, there are clearly things he doesn't know or doesn't care to make the distinction between. That doesn't mean the distinctions don't exist. Sometimes we have to do our own legwork.

    There's never been an instance where you knew more about something than your tailor, or where he was clearly wrong about it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  20. poorsod

    poorsod Well-Known Member

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    None that I recall. Is it serendipity or selecting the right tailors? Now there was one instance when Tony Gaziano steered me to a shoe design which in retrospect would have been better in the original form. But I wouldn't have known until I completed the project. And it was shoes, not tailoring.
     

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