The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY, AND F

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Shirtmaven

    Shirtmaven Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I am so amused by the fabric discussion... except from Ataruk..

    I was brought a piece of the SG work shirt chambray, sold by Will, just after he started selling it.
    It was 60" wide and woven on modern looms. I had not read any of the early threads about this fabric.
    that is why i was so appalled by the cost vs quality aspect of the fabric.

    a second person brought me a length of the will work shirt chambray as well. Same cheap stuff that has a little bit
    of poly in the mottled looking blue yarn.

    I have never seen the 36" wide work shirt chambray.
    I have also never seen the voile chambray.
    I have worked with voile chambray in the past. some was made in a now closed mill from Lyon, france called Dupont.
    it felt more like a batiste, but it was amazing. I think I have an old shirt of my father's made from this voile.
    I have also seen the same voile from Italy and Switzerland.

    in regards to the three photos posted.
    not sure what the first fabric is. i would need a swatch in hand.

    fabric two, whether it is wide or narrow, is the usual work shirt chambray the pilling might come from the poly/cotton yarns separating.
    It is still cheap fabric.....

    the third photo. looks like fabric that i can buy from any decent mill in the world. quality from G and R might be better and more expensive then a better mill from india. price for this fabric from any of these mills is a lot less then what Foo has confidentially told me what he was paying. I will happily sell anything in my inventory(except 2/200) for that price and walk away very happy.
    with out touching the fabric, I can not really give a proper opinion.
    The fabric should make up a very nice shirt. more of what I would have suggested for a One shirt. as opposed to the work shirt chambray.

    If anyone is interested in the work shirt chambray. I am looking into having the fabric woven in India. the price per yard would be a lot less then current pricing. please PM me if interested. I would have to weave several hundred yards. and would only do this. if there is enough interest. I have access presently to the same shade of work shirt chambray from india. but the weave is looser and not the same yarn size. the in stock fabric is also very well priced.
     


  2. hws

    hws Senior member

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    Is funny, persons who not know real Naples say, "much Naples person is wearing chambray." Also say, "Mariano have shirt of this, so must to be so special." :rolleyes:

    I have sur mesure shirt of old-production SG chambray of narrow tissu made to SG own loom. My shirts maker make for me this much years before. This old-production tissu also is no so something special.

    SG no make no more chambray of own loom for almost of ten year now! SG now ask to other tisserand for make produce chambray for SG! Some time other tisserand have problem, like bankrupt! So then problem for SG.

    I read much poast in this threak, also other poast in other threak, poaster seem infoiato for SG chambray! This poasters must to take a sega while think to SG chambray tissu! :slayer:

    Mariano and other "good taste" man take advantage of naïveté of customer! He buy old tissu from retire tailor and shirts maker for nothing! Then speak to customer, "this tissu is so special, is only for customer who have advance taste." Customer have insecurity, think, I must to choose this for to make Mariano respect of me as conneisseur.

    Much persons on styleforvm not realise narrow tissu can to be produce to wide loom! Have naïve romance idea of narrow loom product always to be better!
     


  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    Whoah. Let's back up a little bit. I can't speak for others, but I never said it's common to wear chambray in Naples. Perhaps that has become a popular myth of sorts, but I would be the first to deny its truth. I don't recall seeing much chambray worn in Naples at all. In fact, the only chambray shirts I remember seeing in Naples were the ones worn by Mariano himself. People should not confuse Mariano's own practices for being typically Neopolitan.

    I just thought it looked nice. Dress shirting is typically quite smooth. So, I liked the fuzzy nap it seemed to have. That's all. There is no desire to copy what anyone does in Naples, and I think the myth of the "magic" behind this shirting has largely been dispelled by now. It's quite obvious the shirting I received is from modern looms, and I see no reason why another manufacturer couldn't replicate something similar. It's just not that easy to find, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013


  4. Gruto

    Gruto Senior member

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    Yes, SG makes a chambray and voile dress shirting in different solid colours like sky and pink. They also make an amount of other shirtings including a rough denim like chambray fabric for casual shirts.
     


  5. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't think it were possible, but the gauntlet button discussion was marginally more interesting.

    I am sure this new chambray will look nice, as would have the old chambray and as would also many others.

    Edit: Holy cow! I am wearing a pink shirt today and I think it might be chambray (or maybe end on end) since it is woven with white and pink (I can't tell which direction on the loom were the white and which were the pink, sorry).
     


  6. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    I honestly don't know. Maybe there's different ways the same effect could arise. But my theory is that it often results from fabric that's not preshrunk as rigorously as it could be.
     


  7. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I thought I would keep you all up to date. I have looked at this shirt a little more closely and, based on how the weave presents, I do not think it is chambray. Or if it is chambray, it might, perhaps be a different kind of chambray, say a third-wave, non-SG chambray, or TWNSGC for short. I can explain more if anyone is interested.
     


  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    Yet here you are!


    My understanding is that chambray is, in fact, a sub-species of end-on-end. End-on-end is just plain-woven shirting where the warp and weft are different colors. Chambray is a specific formulation, where the weft is white and the warp is all a single color. Non-chambray end-on-end shirtings include those with colored wefts (say, a light blue weft and darker blue warp) and those with multiple colors in the warp (such as alternating dark blue and light blue in the warp, with a white weft). It seems you can get more of a cross-hatched effect with non-chambray end-on-end. In contrast, color variations in chambray tend to appear more strongly in parallel striations.

    If there is only white in one direction, and only one pink in the other, I think that is definitionally a chambray.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013


  9. edmorel

    edmorel Quality Seller!! Dubiously Honored

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    Interested.

    Also, would it be possible to get the age of the loom used to mill the fabric?
     


  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    That doesn't sound right. You want yarns to be resilient and spring back to form. If they are rigid, you get a crunchy shirting that wrinkles a lot and doesn't drape well. I really don't think shrinkage is the issue here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013


  11. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yes. Judging from the number of PMs I received on this topic, the amount of interest in the subject is not surprising. As I mentioned before, the shirt is woven with threads of pink and of white, in precise proportions that remain unknown at this point, though I suspect they are in equal amounts, half being run horizontally on the loom and half in the perpendicular direction. The weaving process controls the interweaving of the threads such that the fabric appears, only upon a very close examination, to be made of faint pink and white stripes. The stripes run in a horizontal alignment across the body of the shirt, so, naturally, at the cuffs, the orientation changes 90 degrees (or possibly 270). The stripes are evenly spaced and consistent, though there is some changes in thickness, especially in the white stripes. This differs from the SG Chambray, which is more of a plain weave, hence I call it TWNSGC.

    It is hard to know precisely. The shirting is most likely Acorn, which means it would be made in China on ancient looms dating to sometime between the Qin and the Sui Dynasties. Keep in mind, however, that this really refers to the location and design of the looms, as Chinese looms are kept in a state of constant use and perfect repair with the continual replacing of parts with NOS inventory or site made pieces constructed using the original fabricating techniques and materials. Thus, the looms, like a river that remains in place even as every drop of water is constantly renewed, are fresh yet ancient.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013


  12. edmorel

    edmorel Quality Seller!! Dubiously Honored

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    Would like to hear more about this. How great is the change? Is the change in thickness across both the pink and white threads or is it only one of the two? Where on the shirt does it get thicker and what does that do to the feel/drape of the shirt? What do you think would occur if all the threads were of the same thickness? Better/worse?
     


  13. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    What is wrong with you people?? I specifically said, the thickness of the stripe varies especially in the white stripes but also in the pink stripes BUT MOSTLY IN THE WHITE STRIPES. So why are you asking me if the change in thickness is across both the pink and the white threads or only in one of the two? Obviously, it is in both, but more in one than in the other. I already explained that, and I don't see how I could be any clearer. I don't know what the point of writing all this is if people aren't going to read it and then just come on and argue anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013


  14. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    I read it carefully and I love the White Stripes (but not so much with Jack White's solo stuff).
     


  15. edmorel

    edmorel Quality Seller!! Dubiously Honored

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    interesting, so wouldn't that make it a modern day loomed chambray :confused: Or is it possible that the fabric was being loomed on an old loom, the loom broke down, and then it was finished on a modern loom?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013


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