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The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY, AND F

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    My recollection is that he sold the voile as chambray, then got the chambray, and both were always 150cm. I confirmed it by searching the posts on his blog. Also, he still has the "real" chambray listed for sale, alongside the voile. Only the blue color chambray is out of stock. All 150cm.

    Anyway, I don't want to antagonize anyone, I just really doubt any of the chambray people were showing off was really made on 18th century looms. That claim comes from Will, doesn't it? And it obviously isn't true for the stuff he's selling.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  2. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    Oh, that "spongey" texture is from washing. If it still looks like that after it's ironed maybe you should turn the heat up a little.
     
  3. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    BTW, for some reason it occurred to me that perhaps the lingerie bags you were washing your Riva shirts in may have abraded the cloth more than normal. I've always tossed my shirts into the wash with everything else, and they seem none the worse for wear, but none were Rivas either.
     
  4. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    He told me he's been out of the chambray for a while. The website just doesn't show it.

    You got the new-loomed chambray, like what I have. But obviously some people got their hands on old-loomed stuff, as evidenced by the half-width dimensions, and they got it through Will. Now, whether those old looms are as old as the 18th century, I don't know, but clearly they are not modern full-width looms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  5. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    We may have different definitions of sponginess. Both the SG voile and chambray exhibit it, and it's right there next to the sharp creases the iron puts in the cloth.
     
  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Interesting theory. But I have trouble understanding how the bags would be more abrasive than other clothes in the washer. Also, the wear is in very specific, consistent areas: edges of seams and hems, points on collars and cuffs, etc.
     
  7. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There's no reason the voile would be spongier than the true "new" chambray, right? They are probably coming off the same looms.
     
  8. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    To add to the SG cloth confusion, I have both the pink and blue voiles, and the pink feels like a lighter weave than the blue. It's looser to the point that the collar stays can some times poke out a bit (that is, you can see a little bit of white under the collar points). The blue feels like a tighter weave with a relatively harder finish.

    I say this to reinforce the point that we're dealing with small-batch artisanal products whose strengths probably don't include consistency of manufacture, so the differences we see may not be by design.

    But about sponginess, I'm not sure how to compare the two. By spongey, I mean that there is a bit of give to the cloth when you pull it, and then it springs back when you let go. It's not like any of the other shirtings I've used.
     
    2 people like this.
  9. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    I think that's from the finishing rather than the weaving. I have shirts made from various non-mainstream shirting fabrics (Indian madras, muslin, linen, even bedsheets), and they're all "spongy" like that.

    Muslin actually has a lot of qualities of the famous Chambray--it's coarse, has a loose, air weave, stretchy or spongey, gets fuzzy after being washed, has imperfections, nubs, and the like. Even comes in 36" widths. I see Will charges about $110 for a shirt length, I could let some of my muslin go for $75...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm not sure how much finishing would influence the memory and resilience of a fabric. If anything, wouldn't any sort of finishing, such as a chemical treatment, weaken it? It seems to me that "sponginess" as Andre describes has a lot more to do with the intrinsic nature of the fibers used, how they are twisted/spun into yarns, and how the yarns are woven together.
     
  11. Shirtmaven

    Shirtmaven Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I am so amused by the fabric discussion... except from Ataruk..

    I was brought a piece of the SG work shirt chambray, sold by Will, just after he started selling it.
    It was 60" wide and woven on modern looms. I had not read any of the early threads about this fabric.
    that is why i was so appalled by the cost vs quality aspect of the fabric.

    a second person brought me a length of the will work shirt chambray as well. Same cheap stuff that has a little bit
    of poly in the mottled looking blue yarn.

    I have never seen the 36" wide work shirt chambray.
    I have also never seen the voile chambray.
    I have worked with voile chambray in the past. some was made in a now closed mill from Lyon, france called Dupont.
    it felt more like a batiste, but it was amazing. I think I have an old shirt of my father's made from this voile.
    I have also seen the same voile from Italy and Switzerland.

    in regards to the three photos posted.
    not sure what the first fabric is. i would need a swatch in hand.

    fabric two, whether it is wide or narrow, is the usual work shirt chambray the pilling might come from the poly/cotton yarns separating.
    It is still cheap fabric.....

    the third photo. looks like fabric that i can buy from any decent mill in the world. quality from G and R might be better and more expensive then a better mill from india. price for this fabric from any of these mills is a lot less then what Foo has confidentially told me what he was paying. I will happily sell anything in my inventory(except 2/200) for that price and walk away very happy.
    with out touching the fabric, I can not really give a proper opinion.
    The fabric should make up a very nice shirt. more of what I would have suggested for a One shirt. as opposed to the work shirt chambray.

    If anyone is interested in the work shirt chambray. I am looking into having the fabric woven in India. the price per yard would be a lot less then current pricing. please PM me if interested. I would have to weave several hundred yards. and would only do this. if there is enough interest. I have access presently to the same shade of work shirt chambray from india. but the weave is looser and not the same yarn size. the in stock fabric is also very well priced.
     
    2 people like this.
  12. hws

    hws Senior member

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    Is funny, persons who not know real Naples say, "much Naples person is wearing chambray." Also say, "Mariano have shirt of this, so must to be so special." :rolleyes:

    I have sur mesure shirt of old-production SG chambray of narrow tissu made to SG own loom. My shirts maker make for me this much years before. This old-production tissu also is no so something special.

    SG no make no more chambray of own loom for almost of ten year now! SG now ask to other tisserand for make produce chambray for SG! Some time other tisserand have problem, like bankrupt! So then problem for SG.

    I read much poast in this threak, also other poast in other threak, poaster seem infoiato for SG chambray! This poasters must to take a sega while think to SG chambray tissu! :slayer:

    Mariano and other "good taste" man take advantage of naïveté of customer! He buy old tissu from retire tailor and shirts maker for nothing! Then speak to customer, "this tissu is so special, is only for customer who have advance taste." Customer have insecurity, think, I must to choose this for to make Mariano respect of me as conneisseur.

    Much persons on styleforvm not realise narrow tissu can to be produce to wide loom! Have naïve romance idea of narrow loom product always to be better!
     
  13. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Whoah. Let's back up a little bit. I can't speak for others, but I never said it's common to wear chambray in Naples. Perhaps that has become a popular myth of sorts, but I would be the first to deny its truth. I don't recall seeing much chambray worn in Naples at all. In fact, the only chambray shirts I remember seeing in Naples were the ones worn by Mariano himself. People should not confuse Mariano's own practices for being typically Neopolitan.

    I just thought it looked nice. Dress shirting is typically quite smooth. So, I liked the fuzzy nap it seemed to have. That's all. There is no desire to copy what anyone does in Naples, and I think the myth of the "magic" behind this shirting has largely been dispelled by now. It's quite obvious the shirting I received is from modern looms, and I see no reason why another manufacturer couldn't replicate something similar. It's just not that easy to find, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  14. Gruto

    Gruto Senior member

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    Yes, SG makes a chambray and voile dress shirting in different solid colours like sky and pink. They also make an amount of other shirtings including a rough denim like chambray fabric for casual shirts.
     
  15. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't think it were possible, but the gauntlet button discussion was marginally more interesting.

    I am sure this new chambray will look nice, as would have the old chambray and as would also many others.

    Edit: Holy cow! I am wearing a pink shirt today and I think it might be chambray (or maybe end on end) since it is woven with white and pink (I can't tell which direction on the loom were the white and which were the pink, sorry).
     
  16. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    I honestly don't know. Maybe there's different ways the same effect could arise. But my theory is that it often results from fabric that's not preshrunk as rigorously as it could be.
     
  17. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I thought I would keep you all up to date. I have looked at this shirt a little more closely and, based on how the weave presents, I do not think it is chambray. Or if it is chambray, it might, perhaps be a different kind of chambray, say a third-wave, non-SG chambray, or TWNSGC for short. I can explain more if anyone is interested.
     
  18. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yet here you are!


    My understanding is that chambray is, in fact, a sub-species of end-on-end. End-on-end is just plain-woven shirting where the warp and weft are different colors. Chambray is a specific formulation, where the weft is white and the warp is all a single color. Non-chambray end-on-end shirtings include those with colored wefts (say, a light blue weft and darker blue warp) and those with multiple colors in the warp (such as alternating dark blue and light blue in the warp, with a white weft). It seems you can get more of a cross-hatched effect with non-chambray end-on-end. In contrast, color variations in chambray tend to appear more strongly in parallel striations.

    If there is only white in one direction, and only one pink in the other, I think that is definitionally a chambray.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  19. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Interested.

    Also, would it be possible to get the age of the loom used to mill the fabric?
     
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  20. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That doesn't sound right. You want yarns to be resilient and spring back to form. If they are rigid, you get a crunchy shirting that wrinkles a lot and doesn't drape well. I really don't think shrinkage is the issue here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013

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