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The Official Wine Thread

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by audiophilia, Jul 20, 2009.

  1. gomestar

    gomestar Well-Known Member

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    this is a bit broad, IMO. Lots can affect the feeling of "concentration". A hot year producing higher alcohol can make a wine taste bigger and more concentrated. A bad year with thin crappy wines, wineries may add sugar or something to help create a bigger wine (I wonder if some places add bits of stems in there as it ferments with the hope of getting more tannins). Better grape selection will produce more concentrated wines.

    Chianti in the 80's maybe. Burgundy in the 80's maybe. I agree that if a vineyard has really old vines, a winery is probably going to be more inclined to pick carefully and charge more for their wines, but there's likely plenty out there who don't bother and instead elect to produce more mid-range wines and stick "vieilles vignes" on the label.

    I guess my point is i don't believe that "old vines" makes or breaks the majority of wines, and any "gain" you can get from old vines can be just as quickly ruined by a number of outside factors.
     
  2. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    I could swear I've seen/read folks say the truly old vines have lower yields than younger vines.
     
  3. gomestar

    gomestar Well-Known Member

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    vineyard yield vs. % of that yield that a winery wants to use to make their wine.
     
  4. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm pretty leery of the general "old vines" or "vieilles vignes" having much real meaning in regards to what's in any particular bottle too.
     
  5. indesertum

    indesertum Well-Known Member

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    i also dont believe that old vines "make or break" wines. but they do taste different if all else is same.

    i guess now we're into semantics, but i dont know how else to explain what i taste besides concentrated. it's not the same taste as chaptalized wines or whole cluster fermentation (ie adding bits of stems), which a ton of burgundians do. DRC sometimes does 100% whole cluster and on IDTT Frederic Barnier was saying they always add at least some whole cluster across the Jadot wines.

    wine from actually really old vines like at least 50, 60 years old have this kind of extract like taste. everything is way more intense.

    from what i remember talking to a vigneron old vines develop tannins more quickly so you can actually harvest earlier in hot years without compromising development.


    older vines have smaller berries, smaller clusters, and less berries.


    i mean i think sorting is important but above a certain level most wineries do pretty strict harvesting. for kermit lynch wines they tell you the actual yield levels versus HA which is a decent rough estimate of % yield a winery wants to use to make their wine


    yeah the label might mean something might not. also "old" is so relative. i feel like in california or oregon people could label 20, 30 year old wines as "old"

    a lot of times if you're actually interested you can look up the average age of the vines they use. the big importers list a lot of specs for all the wines they bring in. which is such a pain to look up in the store
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  6. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    Whole cluster is so distinctive and I tend to really enjoy it. One of the wine makers I got to spend some time with back in February said whole cluster works best in warmer areas and with riper fruit. He said you're seeing a return to whole cluster in Burgundy due to global warming. He thinks the stems work better in a ferment when the grapes had warmer temps and work less well in cooler areas/vintages.

    Then there's co-fermentation too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  7. djblisk

    djblisk Well-Known Member

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    WTSO had a 2010 Brunello for $23 bucks with free shipping on 4 and no tax.

    I grabbed 6!
     
  8. indesertum

    indesertum Well-Known Member

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    yeah. IDTT interviewed Aubert de Villaine and he was saying they do 100% whole cluster if the year is hot. I think I remember him saying that the trend is less whole cluster, but who knows. rajat parr also does whole cluster for sandhi and domaine the de la cote. he was also saying it was cuz he thought the hotter weather was more suited to it.

    i dont know of any wineries that intentionally do co-fermentation (unles you're talking about some other co-fermentatino). there are a few wineries that pick through a field and the field is a mix of things or they just dont really quite know what they are cuz they haven't identified using something more concrete like DNA. most wineries vinify everything separately. like blocks within vineyards or vines and even different patches of soils are vinified separately so you can blend it together later.

    man i haven't talked about wine with somebody in forever. people my age aren't really into wine. i feel like most people i meet don't care, don't drink, or just drink shots
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
    1 person likes this.
  9. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    Off the top of my head Syrah and Viognier are not uncommon to be purposely co-fermented. Had some in Paso out of the barrel. It happens in Cote-Rotie and some down in Oz do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  10. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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  11. indesertum

    indesertum Well-Known Member

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    ah right they do that in cote rotie. thanks for the article
     
  12. ChrisGold

    ChrisGold Well-Known Member

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    The most important aspect of an older vine is that it has a very deep root system and so it's not as subject to the vagaries of that year's climate. Yields do diminish after a certain point, depending on the type of vine / rootstock, which is why eventually vineyards are re-planted, usually in sections to maintain minimum production levels.

    Managing vineyard yields is a bit of a double edged sword. Some vines just want to put out a certain amount of fruit, and dropping a ton of fruit just yields outrageous canopies that you then fight for the rest of that vintage. I remember tasting a gorgeous Pinot Noir from the RRV with the winemaker and the vineyard manager, and discussing yields with them. It was not a particularly tightly spaced vineyard, and yields were typically around 7 - 8 tons per acre. The vineyard manager told me that the owner of the vineyard wanted the yields under 5 tons to see if it would yield more concentration, and higher quality fruit, but what they found was that the highest quality fruit was at 7 - 8. I subsequently had that same conversation with other winery owners and found a pattern, which is that the vineyard would tell you what it should be producing, and fighting that yield often was a losing battle.
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. Principle

    Principle Well-Known Member

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    I'm currently studying in New England and you'd think there would be enough yuppies to get a bottle share together, but no luck in the past year. I almost exclusively drink nice bottles with my girlfriend and the chef/owner of this French bistro we both enjoy going to.
     
  14. Principle

    Principle Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] These Italian wines are so god damn tight
     
  15. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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    Barolo needs at least 15 years.

    /Slewfoot
     
  16. Principle

    Principle Well-Known Member

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    Does this apply to sister barbaresco?
     
  17. Axelman 17

    Axelman 17 Well-Known Member

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    I am hosting a gathering at my apartment where I will be pairing classical music and wine. I am looking for a red burg (will be paired with the Beethoven triple concerto) and a white burg (for the Academic Festival). Looking to spend about $50 per bottle and wine needs to be ready to drink.

    Any ideas?
     
  18. ChrisGold

    ChrisGold Well-Known Member

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    Not typically, should soften in around half the time as Barolo, but obviously this varies from producer to producer. There are many more that are drinkable very early on.
     
  19. gomestar

    gomestar Well-Known Member

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    this is a total Manton question.

    For the Heiliger Dankgesang, maybe start with a Tequila hangover and work it from there?
     
  20. Principle

    Principle Well-Known Member

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    Can someone described to me what it means for a wine to be 'flabby' or 'spent'?

    Edit: two different phrases decribing different things, interested nonetheless

    I had a 20 year old Riesling a few days ago with a french couple and they rambled on about how the wine was past its prime.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015

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