1. Styleforum Gives - Holiday Charity Auction 10: A full set of Aesop's Fables pocket squares from Vanda Fine Clothing

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    The 10th auction of the year is for a full set of Aesop's Fable's pocket squares from Vanda Fine Clothing. Please bid often and generously here

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Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Mr. Moo, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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    The term "goodyear welted" gets thrown around like it is God's dick, but really it is an inexpensive process and like Money said it is an arguably a poor substitute for hand welting. Handmade gets thrown in any time a person touches a shoe, which can be just to guide a machine really. The best machine made method for shoe construction is probably blake/rapid, not goodyear. It is sturdier and doesn't use glue to hold the welt to the insole. In-fact it doesn't even have a welt but an entire layer of leather. Some might say this method is better than hand welting, but some still prefer the romance and craft of hand-made goods.

    With this said, my Rider boots are blake/rapid and I love them, furthermore I have discontinued buying many shoes in favor of St. Crispins due to them being all handmade.
     


  2. Munky

    Munky Distinguished Member

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    I'm not sure about the degree to which god's dick gets thrown around (or if, indeed, he has one). Also, I am not sure that Money was saying that goodyear welting was a poor substitute for hand welting. It sounds as though you are saying that there is no difference between a 'handmade' and any other sort of shoe, as both involve machinery. Why, then, do some companies claim that their shoes are handmade and others not? It seems to me that a company who claims that their shoes are handmade is claiming that their shoes are somehow better than others.
     


  3. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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    They claim handmade shoes are better, but really it means either they cut the patterns out by hand, hand lasted part of the shoes (even the had parts of $1k+ shoes aren't hand lasted). It is essentially all marketing.

    I in no way said that there is no difference between a hand made shoe and a machine made shoe. In fact, I said the opposite. The difference is that somebody who claims their shoe is handmade and it is goodyear welted is misinformed because goodyear welting is done by a machine.

    But yes, goodyear welting IS a poor substitute for hand welting. Blake/rapid is NOT a poor substitute for hand welting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013


  4. NAMOR

    NAMOR Stylish Dinosaur

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    all this talk about handmade shoes has got me hungry for some high quality, handwelted dominos pizza
     


  5. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Distinguished Member

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    It is true that Goodyear-welted shoes are touted as being the best shoe construction method known, which it certainly isn't.

    A hand-welted shoe can not be a Goodyear-welted shoe, since Goodyear-welting is done by machine. Therefore, when you see someone say that their shoes are "hand-welted Goodyear" they are misinformed and are using the marketing hype that Goodyear-welting brings to sell their shoes.

    However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Goodyear-welting is a poor substitute for hand-welting. All shoe construction methods have their pros and cons, and all have their place. It is generally recognized that a hand-welted bespoke shoe that is made to the highest standards is the best shoe one can aspire to. DWF has said that he believes that a hand-welted shoe is better than a Blake/Rapid shoe without question. This is an important consideration that bears being fleshed out. If a hand-welted shoe is better than a Blake/Rapid shoe, then there has to be other benefits that sets a hand-welted shoe above the Blake/Rapid (because neither of them depends on cement to hold the sole on). One of the main differences is in the insole. DWF always points out that the leather insole is the ultimate consideration in the lifespan potential of a shoe (assuming the shoe is made of the best quality leathers). If all else is equal, the shoe with the weaker insole will be the shoe with a shorter lifespan. This is a crucial point to dwell on. Most Blake/Rapid shoes use insoles of lesser quality than Goodyear-welted ones, and certainly lesser quality than hand-welted ones. Even Rancourt & Co. (one of the better Blake/Rapid manufacturers) uses fiberboard insoles wrapped with a thin piece of leather. I can't speak for Rider's boots, as I have no first hand experience, and Aubercy is another extremely high-end Blake/Rapid maker which I have no experience with (but at Aubercy's prices you may as well go hand-welted or even bespoke). However, the stitching of a midsole through the insole weakens the integrity of the insole more every time it is replaced. Now, you can replace the outsole of either shoe without replacing it's mounting point (midsole or welt, respectively), thus prolonging the life of the shoe by not having to restitch the mounting point, but replacing the outsole mounting point requires restitching. For hand-welted shoes, the restitching can be done using the same holes in the bottom of the insole. However, in Blake/Rapid, it will be redone with a machine and is limited in how many times it can be done before the leather integrity of the upper and insole is destroyed.

    The traits that set a hand-welted shoe above a Blake/Rapid one are partly present in Goodyear-welted ones as well, in that the insole doesn't have to be tampered with or weakened by the repetitive re-stitching. Now, the problem with most Goodyear-welted shoes is that they replace the welt every time the shoe is sent in for a recrafting, which actually shortens the overall lifespan of the shoe due to the needle perforations weakening the upper. The welt shouldn't be replaced unless it is worn or damaged, that's the point of it. But that is ignored. The question is, do the Blake/Rapid manufacturers automatically replace the midsole every time they are resoled as well? If so, then they are back on equal playing fields.

    Bear in mind that these aren't the only things to consider when comparing Goodyear-welted to Blake/Rapid. There are other pros and cons as well. Personally, I'm happy to buy either one, and hold them in about equal standing, with hand-welted/bespoke shoes being better than both. If I can get 20 years out of a pair of calfskin shoes I'll feel like they have lived a good life, and I think you can get 20 years out of either Goodyear or Blake/Rapid as long as your uppers don't disintegrate first.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013


  6. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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  7. BootSpell

    BootSpell Distinguished Member

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  8. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

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    Don't think there are any pure hand made shoes. At the very least upper closing is done on hand guided sewing machine majority of the time. But there are workshops that handmade lasts, hand click, <machine assisted> hand close, and hand shoemaking, and hand finished.

    As to longevity, quality of the insole is one of the most important factor IMO, as it is the most difficult part of the shoes to maintain.
     


  9. patrick_b

    patrick_b Distinguished Member

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    Dominos today is machine made garbage. I much prefer vintage dominos, hand tossed, hand fired pie.
     


  10. glenjay

    glenjay Senior Member

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    All of the shoes shown below are from well known, high-end, quality shoe makers. Each pair of shoes is within 20% of the price of the others, and each uses a different method for attaching the outsole.

    I would, and do, own each of them (for different reasons).

    Edward Green - Goodyear welt - size 11.5US
    [​IMG]


    Berluti - Blake Stitch - size 11UK
    [​IMG]


    Frommer Boots (DWFII) - Hand Welted - size Glen
    [​IMG]

    One of the points that DWFII tries to make is that, given similar price points, why would someone not buy bespoke.

    I think he has a valid point, but I do like the diversity in the styles from the different makers, and I also like instant gratification. I'm all for bespoke, but waiting a year for a pair of shoes just kills me. And, my budget does not allow for expensing 10 pair of bespoke shoes at a time.
     


  11. mrjester

    mrjester Distinguished Member

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    Excellent shoes and excellent point.

    And I need to get some polish from you. Maybe this weekend!
     


  12. Beach Bum

    Beach Bum Senior Member

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    I need polish. Colonil 1909 or Saphir. I need a cleaner/conditioner, several shades of cream polish, several colors of wax polish. That's it, no brushes nothing else.

    What's the easiest and most economical way to have these sent to me in Chicago? Send a link and ill buy tonight. Thanks SF.
     


  13. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Distinguished Member

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    I can almost feel the quality of those Frommer's through my computer screen. Beautiful.
     


  14. Chuckie Egg

    Chuckie Egg Senior Member

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    Thank you that's really helpful :)
     


  15. BCer

    BCer Senior Member

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    OMG, I'm busy wiping the drool off my iPad screen. Orgasmic shoes - all 3 pair! Thank you for sharing!
     


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