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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.**

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Mr. Moo, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. frogwash

    frogwash Well-Known Member

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    Castaic, CA
    

    A little while back, it seems the implication was made by "Rider" that Kirby put up the incorrect usage of Renomat on HP by suggesting its use too often in regular shoe maintenance; but assuming riderbootshop.com is Ron's, that also recommends Renomat several times a year:


    http://www.riderbootshop.com/saphir-renomat/
     
  2. Like a Sir

    Like a Sir Member

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    Thank you both. This forum is nice for learning new stuff.
     
  3. glenjay

    glenjay Senior member

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    I'm sorry, but I don't believe your facts are correct.

    Water is not an integral part of the structure of leather, it is an integral part of skin. Part of the process of converting skin to leather is to modify the collagen structure by replacing the oxygen atoms in the hydrogen bonding with amino acids in the tanning solution (different chemicals, for different tanning processes) and keep the triple collagen helix intact. Removing water too soon in this process can damage the hydrogen bonding.

    Fat liquoring is used to add lubrication between the fibril bundles to allow the leather fiber to flex. Fats are not permanently bound to leather; they are however forced into the leather fiber in an emulsified state to ensure distribution throughout the fibril bundles. If any humectant exists it would be the in the sulfur used for the sulfated oil.

    The size and density of the leather fiber will affect how well it absorbs liquids, such as oil and water. Keeping in mind that leather comes from more places than just cows.

    Because leather fiber absorbs and retains liquids, it not only absorbs oil, but also water (and 30 year old scotch) which makes it hydroscopic. But because it is hydroscopic the absorbed water is susceptible to evaporation; allowing the water moisture in the leather to adjust to relative humidity. This absorption/evaporation process is referred to as allowing the leather to breathe.

    Conditioning a shoe is not the same as tanning, or fat liquoring, a shoe. Conditioning is done to replace any oils (that are lubricating the fibril bundles) that have been lost, (to things like cleaning, stripping, stepping in a puddle, and oxidation, to name a few). It is unlikely you will find any humectants in leather conditioners as oils are inherently hydrophobic. You are much more likely to find a humectant, like glycerin, in leather cleaner than in leather conditioner.
     
  4. dlind

    dlind Senior member

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    Location:
    London
    Firstly, thank you for the great information provided! Secondly if you wouldn't mind could you please outline a shoe care regiment according to you? both daily and more of a like 1 or two times a year recond, and lastly just for clarification is there any need for a conditioner besides the renovator or is that one (or similar) sufficient?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  5. RIDER

    RIDER Senior member

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    Surely.

    Actually, the guide Sid Mashburn has on the site is perfect - with the exception of the use of Dubbin on a finished calfskin, I concur with the methods.

    http://www.sidmashburn.com/shop/shoe-shine-playbook/calfskin.html

    Clearly suggests using a TINY bit of Renovateur, not globs of it, and they took my recommendation regarding RenoMat as an occasional use, more heavy duty cleaning, product. I don't think I could make it more clear than that. Nowhere does it say you have to totally treat new shoes before letting them hit the pavement that I can see.
     
  6. RIDER

    RIDER Senior member

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  7. benhour

    benhour Senior member

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    Athens
    in the 2-3 first layers i use the same amount of wax polish!! the last one is a little less but not to mutch ''les''!!

    btw if you dont hit your shoes somewhere or noboby step on them, with one buff with a microfiber cloth and a tiny amount of cream polish once a month you ll be more than fine!! i have made a mirror shine guide so maybe i have to uploaded here or start a new thread!! all thoughts are more than welcome ! [​IMG]
     
  8. RIDER

    RIDER Senior member

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    Not sure how I can make it more clear in the description that RenoMat is suggested to be an occasional cleaner/light stripper for you. 'Few' and 'several' have very different meanings to me.
     
  9. Fang66

    Fang66 Senior member

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    Thanks for the post, very informative.

    However everything contains chemicals, in fact everything is chemicals, perhaps you mean synthetics? And it does contain solvents, water for example is a solvent, and from the document you posted

    Hand protection:
    "Due to the solvents present, it is recommended that polyvinyl alcohol or nitrile rubber gloves be worn"
     
  10. RIDER

    RIDER Senior member

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    Very interesting...thanks for pointing that out! I never even looked at the hand part....as a matter of fact, I have always used my bare hands to dab it on for a quick cleaning. Melts like hand lotion, but I need to ask about that. And no, I meant to type chemicals - but I suppose I am thinking in laymans terms. I never considered water as a solvent, but I'm not a scientist. Just a shoe salesman......

    For me, when it comes to msds's, the main part of interest (and regulations) is the transport section. Whenever that section say's 'safe for transport without restrictions' our minds go straight to 'nothing harmful here to worry about'.

    And, our entire industry is loaded with harmful products, processes, everything......the rare items that show up without red flags, orange X's, harmful to aquatic organisms stamps, etc., etc., etc.....we scratch our heads and ask 'can it really work?'.

    I will ask the chemist about that, but it could well be like the warnings everyone puts on all aerosol cans - 'must be used with proper ventilation, dispose of in approved landfill containers' for example - knowing full well that's impractical in most cases.
     
  11. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member

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    Awesome stuff, based on what Ron and Nick (offline) has said it seems that perhaps I was using too much reno. I was basically using it on the vamps every other wear. Perhaps that is my problem.

    Ron, what do you feel about some people saying turpentine in these products can be damaging? Also, what is your thoughts of the Creme Universelle vs. leather lotion vs. nappa leather balm (which seems very delicate) for calf leather.

    FWIW, Ron's one other other different maker are the only shoes I have that have held up... Hmmm...
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  12. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    Ron, thanks for all of your input on the late discussions regarding Saphir products. You are a wealth of knowledge, and have been very helpful. The above comment caught my attention. This is the first I've heard that AE's black calf is corrected/sanded grain across the board as you seem to imply. Generally AE's corrected/sanded grain shoes are apparent and are termed something like "polished cobbler" or some other term that spins it in a positive way. While they do call their black Park Avenue "black custom calf," I haven't been under the impression that they are corrected grain. In fact, I am fairly certain that the corrected grain police would be all over them if they were, given the disdain for such material around SF. The Park Avenue is AE's "flagship" shoe, and I'd be surprised if it somehow slipped through as being made of inferior leather. Do you have a source to back up the sweeping statement that their black calf is corrected/sanded grain?
     
  13. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    I'll add my note of thanks to Ron for his contributions.
     
  14. JackFlash

    JackFlash Senior member

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    Would be interested in the answer to this as well.
     
  15. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Senior member

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    :wow:

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glob
    me use glob,
    me always do this,
    many many time.
    lt very good for it,
    me use lot of it,
    keep leather very good and not dry,
    me think it much better with many leather type,
    it a good way,
    leather take it easy and good,
    it never bad.
    Me like saphir very very much because it very very good.
    every thing very good,
    me like it very very much.
    Me use saphir most day,
    wish it every day. :(
    Renovater me favorite. :slayer:
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  16. VegTan

    VegTan Senior member

    Messages:
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    May 4, 2013
    

    Hi. Maybe you have mistaken me for someone else...?


    Here are other leathers, which are not so different from soling bends.

    http://archive.org/details/jresv38n1p119
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Winston S.

    Winston S. Senior member

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    New York City
    



    That comment immediately stuck out to me too.

    Ron: If you could provide a source that would be great as this is the first I have heard of it too.
     
  18. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    For what it's worth, this is a source that I had been previously aware of regarding AE's nomenclature of "Custom Calf": http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?99710-Custom-Calf. It seems to conclude that it is just a strange use of words, though one poster does talk about it's qualities being strangely more waterproof and resistant to taking a shine. However, this seems to be the exception to the rule, and certainly doesn't reflect my experience with their black calfskins.
     
  19. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member

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    Corrected grain doesn't always mean inferior.
     
  20. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    You are right. Adding something like a Scotch Grain, or something of the sort, to make a shoe more "interesting" doesn't necessarily cheapen the leather. However, if a shoe is a smooth calfskin with no ornamentation, it is likely an indicator of an inferior leather. Otherwise, what are they correcting for?
     

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