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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.**

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Mr. Moo, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. nmfa

    nmfa Member

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    Why should a oil replenish the leather if added to the surface and not the water? Especially if you have striped your shoe from wax and oils with renomat?

    Renovateur is a water based product, it is an emulsion of oil and water!
    Therefore it will refinish the water as well as the oils in the leather!
     
  2. David Copeland

    David Copeland Senior member

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    When I spoke to Nick last week - his regular shine is $4.00 . He also provides Saphir products at $7.00 (which does seem inexpensive for expensive shoes.

    David
     
  3. David Copeland

    David Copeland Senior member

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    Originally from Newport Beach - Now living in West
  4. jssdc

    jssdc Senior member

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    Seems like others have recommended conditioning RTW shoes prior to the first wear, as there's no telling how long they've been sitting about. Is your objection above to renovateur specifically (since it is both cleaner and conditioner) or to conditioning before first wear generally (with Lexol, for example)? Also, why does wax (i assume you mean paste wax) soften the shoe and why would the color matter?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  5. Fang66

    Fang66 Senior member

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    He also wrote that brown shoes don't make it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Numbernine

    Numbernine Senior member

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    Well we certainly dont see eye to eye on that one. Irc he had a penchant for high heeled knee high python skin boots Check this vid if im not mistaken his fit might just be sf approvedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TIVAMehnxM
     
  7. dbhdnhdbh

    dbhdnhdbh Senior member

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    NMFA,

    I did not know that Renovateur was an emulsion of oil and water. If used as directed, applying very sparingly, then even if it were a mix of oil and water, it would not contribute much water.

    I am not pitching for or against any particular product. As I have indicated, I find the leather chemistry interesting, but I do not claim the applied knowledge required to have an opinion on what products are best. When I sent a pair of shell shoes to Nick V for new soles, he told they were dry so he treated them with Renovateur. That is about as good an endorsement as one can get.

    I have used Renomat to remove caked on wax on vintage shoes and one pair one which a cobbler decided to cover the beautiful patina with a thick coat of opaque polish. Renomat, followed by Renovateur, did a great job of getting the wax off. If shoes are really dirty, I sometimes follow that sequence with Lexol cleaner to get the dirt out. But I have never had the need to use Renomat more than once on a pair of shoes. The fumes alone would rule out employing it as a routine treatment.

    I have not seen any official statement of what is in Renovateur. I have seen one shoe-care site say that it contains "beeswax mink oil, hoof foot oil, and lanolin", but I don't know whether that is correct, let alone what else might be in it. If you have a MSDS, or other information on the contents of Renovateur, please post it.
     
  8. Hill

    Hill Senior member

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    We're the shoes you mentioned that Nick treated with Reno shell or another type of leather?
     
  9. Numbernine

    Numbernine Senior member

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    When I sent a pair of shell shoes to Nick V for new soles, he told they were dry so he treated them with Renovateur. That is about as good an endorsement as one can get.
     
  10. Hill

    Hill Senior member

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    Apologies, missed that
     
  11. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    And I know from the horses mouth (ofvsome bespoke makers) that Renovateur was not used in the manufacturing/making process. Endorsements it could be from B Nelson but caveat emptor.

    Truth is, cordovan is a short fiber and greasy leather compare to calf and likely to suffer and endure dryness disregarding of conditioners used.
     
  12. B-Rogue

    B-Rogue Well-Known Member

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    So should I change from Pommadier cream to Saphir wax instead? Or should I use a coat of cream and then a coat of wax on top (like I've heard some people suggest?)
     
  13. David Copeland

    David Copeland Senior member

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    Be careful and perhaps wait (or call Nick or Kirby - or both personally on Monday - and get a professional opinion)

    I have emailed both Nick and Kirby about new shoes - and what process they would recommend. The products I am using are for the shoes I arealdy purchased and have worn.

    David
     
  14. dbhdnhdbh

    dbhdnhdbh Senior member

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    I agree that I have not heard of Renovateur being used in leather production, but that is not the topic of this discussion. For that matter, there is very little public information about just what tanneries use for specific leathers. I assume customers of the tanneries can may be able to get far more detailed information, but it sounds like much of is classified as proprietary.

    I consider Nick V an expert on shoe maintenance and repair, so if he says Renovateur (and Venetian) are good for dry leather, then I will take him at his word. Nick Horween has advocated Venetian rather than Renovateur, but I have not seen him quoted as suggesting that Renovateur is dangerous for leather.

    For some time Nick Horween has been saying their tannery will start selling a conditioner, once it comes out I certainly will try it.
     
  15. nmfa

    nmfa Member

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    Sorry, but we consumers have no right to get a MSDS for consumer products made for for retail. Only distributors may have that right. Therefore Valmour do not need to publish their MSDS for public access.

    From Valmours homepage:
    "Non greasy cream based on beeswax enriched with mink oil and lanolin. Aqueous formula."

    Nothing more is given.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  16. dbhdnhdbh

    dbhdnhdbh Senior member

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    Some manufacturers tell you what is in their products, even if not required to do so.

    I agree with the assumption that they would publish the MSDS if they were required to. Even the MSDS would not necessarily say everything that is in it. The oils and waxes likely have few if any safety concerns. Since we don't know what is in it, other than that it is "based on" several oils and waxes, I would be reluctant to say that I know its constituents. I have no idea how much water may be in it, but sparingly as I use it, even if it were pure water, it would not provide much moisture. If I think leather needs hydration, I would not count on Renovateur to provide it.

    Lately I have been using pure lanolin on other leather, not yet tried it on shoes. It is very cheap, easy to work with, gives a nice finish, and I think provides some water resistence. I have used it on my shoulder bag that had already been well treated with Lexol. The bag is very dark, but the lanolin did darken it more. That was fine for this purpose, and would be fine for black shoes. I would have been unhappy with the result for lighter colored shoes. The lanolin also softens at just above body temperature. The bag never gets that warm, but I might worry about the pure lanolin getting tacky if used on shoes.

    Leather care, one lifelong experiment.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  17. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    That sounds fine. For calf leathers such as G&G RTW, EG, etc, they are dyed and antiqued with weak finish so doesn't make much sense to use renovator in the beginning to change the factory finish unless its the intent.


    I would rather trust bespoke shoemakers instead of saphir distributors...
     
  18. dbhdnhdbh

    dbhdnhdbh Senior member

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    VegTan,

    Thanks for the information on Renomat. Wow! That is nasty stuff!

    I am glad one whiff told me to use gloves, outdoors, with a fan blowing the fumes away from me. Reading the contents, I am not sure brightening up my shoes is worth exposure to chlorobenzene.

    Using substances such as this to dissolve oils and waxes is standard practice in chemistry labs (with fume hoods, of course). They are also used to dessicate aqueous crystals.

    Yes, leather will eventually reach equilibrium when held at a stable relative humidity. However, this is not instantaneous. For most analysis purposes, they recommend at least 48 hours, and as long as 8 days, at a constant humidity to count on leather having stabilized. If you strip the water out of leather, the fact that it will eventually reaccumulate is not reassuring. Remember, you are trying to avoid losing structural water of collagen and irreversible excess crosslinking due to excessive dryness. You would rather avoid drying out the leather in the first place, and you certainly don't want to leave it like that for days. You absolutely would not want to put your leather through multiple cycles of overdrying, followed by gradual rehydration that may be too late to do any good.

    It sounds far safer, for the leather, to not do this in the first place.
     
  19. phototristan

    phototristan Senior member

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    doesn't look like John Lobb (as an example) recommends any conditioner at all, just a cream polish followed by a wax polish (if desired):
     
  20. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    What does John Lobb Northampton factory know about shoe care???
     

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