The Official MMA thread

[Dr. Mabuse]

Originally Posted by Slopho

UFC is really funny, there's an old saying in Boxing its "As the Heavyweights go, so goes boxing." Nothing like that in UFC. Light HW is stacked. Welter and Middleweight as well. I don't know if signing Alistar and Fedor would do much (I would love to see it) but it seems like there is a huge drought (of skilled fighters) in HW division.

I think HW has historically been the weakest division in MMA. I can't remember a time when any org. was stacked at heavyweight.

 

[Slopho]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mabuse

I think HW has historically been the weakest division in MMA. I can't remember a time when any org. was stacked at heavyweight.

I think that's Strikeforce's only + right now. Now getting them to fight...

 

[Mauro]

^^ of course. Most are limited.
If raining camps groomed their fighters better there could be a good rack of heavyweights. That whole one punch knock out power just ruins ****.

 

[Ambulance Chaser]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mabuse

I think HW has historically been the weakest division in MMA. I can't remember a time when any org. was stacked at heavyweight.
PRIDE a few years back had Fedor, Big Nog, Cro Cop, Josh Barnett, Fabricio Werdum, Aleks Emelianenko, Sergei Kharitonov, and Mark Hunt, among others.

 

[robertorex]

In MMA the full spectrum of skills can't really be displayed at HW where they gas after three takedown attempts. It could also be the weakest because there are just not as many guys who ever get that big, hence the depth of talent isn't there. Fewer guys = fewer competitors and fewer training partners. The guys who get really big also tend to rely on their size more than skill (Lesnar, Carwin, Sapp, Lashley etc.)

 

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

Shane Carwin has pulled out of his scheduled fight with Roy Nelson. Who gets the next title shot after JDS? Winner of a fight between Frank Mir and Nelson?

"The good news is the doctors said I can work on my cardio (they must have seen my last fight lol) with this injury."

 

[Dr. Mabuse]

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

PRIDE a few years back had Fedor, Big Nog, Cro Cop, Josh Barnett, Fabricio Werdum, Aleks Emelianenko, Sergei Kharitonov, and Mark Hunt, among others.

Yeah I was a huge Pride fan during that era but only three or four of those fighters were considered top five at the time, about the same as the UFC now.

 

[Dr. Mabuse]

Originally Posted by robertorex

In MMA the full spectrum of skills can't really be displayed at HW where they gas after three takedown attempts. It could also be the weakest because there are just not as many guys who ever get that big, hence the depth of talent isn't there. Fewer guys = fewer competitors and fewer training partners. The guys who get really big also tend to rely on their size more than skill (Lesnar, Carwin, Sapp, Lashley etc.)

I still don't understand people trying to lump Carwin, and Lesnar in with Lashley or Sapp. Lashley couldn't beat a scrub heavyweight and Sapp lost to Minowa in Japan. I agree that heavyweights can rely more on sheer size and power at times but folks need to go back and watch Carwin and Lesnar fight if they think they are somehow unskilled in all areas and are glorified tough man competitors.

I never thought I would be defending Lesnar but people are getting carried away because of the way he lost. Cain is really that good, folks.

 

[robertorex]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mabuse

I still don't understand people trying to lump Carwin, and Lesnar in with Lashley or Sapp. Lashley couldn't beat a scrub heavyweight and Sapp lost to Minowa in Japan. I agree that heavyweights can rely more on sheer size and power at times but folks need to go back and watch Carwin and Lesnar fight if they think they are somehow unskilled in all areas and are glorified tough man competitors.

I never thought I would be defending Lesnar but people are getting carried away because of the way he lost. Cain is really that good, folks.

I admit the comparison is a little extreme as I would definitely take Lesnar or Carwin over Lashley or Sapp any fight, any time. But neither Carwin nor Lesnar is nearly as well-rounded as one would have to be in order to be competitive in one of the lighter weight classes.

 

[Dr. Mabuse]

I think this is sometimes matters alot but if a fighter is amazing at one thing it can trump being well rounded. Have you ever seen Jake Shields striking? He's considered a top five welterweight. Ben Askren just won Bellator's welterweight title (yes I know it's not top level) with nothing but an amazing wrestling game. I mean this guy literally couldn't finish from mount five rounds in a row. As important as being well rounded is now there are still some fighters who can get by on doing one thing very well. I don't think any of these fighters who excel this way can win a major title, though, except at heavyweight. So you certainly have a point there.

 

[Ambulance Chaser]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mabuse

I think this is sometimes matters alot but if a fighter is amazing at one thing it can trump being well rounded. Have you ever seen Jake Shields striking? He's considered a top five welterweight. Ben Askren just won Bellator's welterweight title (yes I know it's not top level) with nothing but an amazing wrestling game. I mean this guy literally couldn't finish from mount five rounds in a row. As important as being well rounded is now there are still some fighters who can get by on doing one thing very well. I don't think any of these fighters who excel this way can win a major title, though, except at heavyweight. So you certainly have a point there.
Under the Unified Rules, it is possible for a dominant, one-dimensional wrestler to win a non-HW title given the right opponent. Chael Sonnen came within three minutes of doing it. I expect Gray Maynard to LNP Frankie Edgar for 25 minutes en route to the LW title.

 

[robertorex]

Hah, hell, look at Jon Fitch. But even he has more going for him than Brock in that he at least has a defensive game that allows him to LnP effectively. Brock basically folds up when people can him in the face, which is a glaring flaw in any serious fighter's skill set and the fact that he was champion up to now in spite of that shows how lagging the HW division is in terms of overall fighter development. Carwin was good for five minutes but right after he gassed he got tipped over and got caught with an arm triangle. An arm triangle! These deficiencies are all but absent in the top ten of any other division. But I feel we're mostly in agreement anyway so there's no need to beat that horse.

The sport's evolving and now that Cain is on top, the HW division is sure to get better. One thing that he brings to the table is a HW that doesn't run out of gas, so I anticipate that in order to knock him off camps will have to turn their guys into lighter, more efficient machines that can go the distance and use more tools than first-round KO power to win.

 

[Dr. Mabuse]

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

Under the Unified Rules, it is possible for a dominant, one-dimensional wrestler to win a non-HW title given the right opponent. Chael Sonnen came within three minutes of doing it. I expect Gray Maynard to LNP Frankie Edgar for 25 minutes en route to the LW title.

I would go so far as to say any dominant grappler period, but yeah I agree. The rules seem to favor wrestlers in practice. I will take this over bad stand-ups though. It is the fact GSP is such an amazing (MMA) wrestler, along with his obvious other skills, that makes him the least vunerable champion.

 

[Brian SD]

If the UFC signed Alistair Overeem, we wouldn't see a belt movement for years to come.

 

[milosz]

Originally Posted by Slopho

UFC is really funny, there's an old saying in Boxing its "As the Heavyweights go, so goes boxing." Nothing like that in UFC. Light HW is stacked. Welter and Middleweight as well. I don't know if signing Alistar and Fedor would do much (I would love to see it) but it seems like there is a huge drought (of skilled fighters) in HW division.

That statement is almost as applicable to the UFC, because it's about popularity rather than quality.

Boxing mythology is built on Dempsey/Lewis/Marciano/Patterson/Liston/Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Tyson much more than, say, Sugar Ray Robinson or other great welter/middleweights. Right now no one gives a **** about the heavyweight division and the sport as a whole suffers.

Even though the UFC competition is strong in lower weight classes, heavyweights (and light heavies, who'd be boxing as heavies) still seem to pull the biggest numbers. People like paying to see big dudes beat the **** out of each other.