The Official MMA thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by Matt, May 30, 2008.

  1. Oxnard

    Oxnard Senior member

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    imo, aggressiveness should be measured primarily by whether the judges think that the fighter is going for the finish. I'm not saying that fighters should just go out and bang mindlessly, but certainly, they should be fighters should be given a punitive ding for essentially fighting for a stalemate, which Randy appeared to be doing. He never threaten any real damage to Vera at any point in the fight. By the third, it was pretty obvious that he 1) Wasn't inflicting that much damage, and 2) Wasn't going to take down Vera for any decisive GnP. I think that the fight was scored fairly given the guidelines, but this fight highlighted some of the problems with those.
    Yeah I agree with you, this fight was a good example of a stalemate in that sense. Honestly I am surprised by how many people think that Vera was robbed, Randy was a clear winner in my eyes, if only for that he seemed to have much better "octagon control", which the judges seem to rate very highly. Position is key in the UFC, this is very similar to how, when the fight is taken to the ground, the fighter on top always gets the point advantage. It doesn't matter if the guy on his back is throwing endless subs, as long as he is on his back and he doesn't submit the other guy, then he will lose on the judges scorecard. Kind of like with Serra vs Hughes, Serra was throwing some sick bjj submission attempts, got pretty close a few times, but Hughes managed to stay on top and even though he inflicted little damage, he managed to pull out a victory(which pains me greatly as I really wanted to see Matt The Douchebag Hughes get submitted). I am not even thinking about UFC 106 at this point, my mind has already gone past that to the awesomeness that is UFC 107: Penn vs Sanchez. This has the potential to be a truly epic championship fight. I think it is pretty obvious that Sanchez's best chance is to come out guns blazing and hope for a first or second round knockout. If he doesn't manage then I think that his chances of winning become slim, as I could see Penn taking a a decision or like a late-round submission. Granted this all depends, if Penn is in as good a state of condition as he was against Florian, then Sanchez will have his hands full as Penn has a really good chin. Nothing would make me happier than to see Diego Sanchez knock BJ Penn the fuck out.
     


  2. Teacher

    Teacher Senior member

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    P.S. I still rate Sanchez vs. Guida as one of the most awesome fights in UFC history.


    One of the greatest fights EVAAAAAR!


    I am not even thinking about UFC 106 at this point, my mind has already gone past that to the awesomeness that is UFC 107: Penn vs Sanchez. This has the potential to be a truly epic championship fight. I think it is pretty obvious that Sanchez's best chance is to come out guns blazing and hope for a first or second round knockout. If he doesn't manage then I think that his chances of winning become slim, as I could see Penn taking a a decision or like a late-round submission. Granted this all depends, if Penn is in as good a state of condition as he was against Florian, then Sanchez will have his hands full as Penn has a really good chin. Nothing would make me happier than to see Diego Sanchez knock BJ Penn the fuck out.


    I'm also thinking that Sanchez might be able to land a good kick to Penn's head, IF he times things right.
     


  3. Unbreakable

    Unbreakable Senior member

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    HUGE Sanchez fan as well, the kid is like apeshit crazy. Hope he can get the job done vs Penn.
     


  4. somatoform

    somatoform Senior member

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    Position is key in the UFC, this is very similar to how, when the fight is taken to the ground, the fighter on top always gets the point advantage. It doesn't matter if the guy on his back is throwing endless subs, as long as he is on his back and he doesn't submit the other guy, then he will lose on the judges scorecard.


    I don't know enough about judging, but does this maybe indicate how judging is faulty, for example? If someone is on the bottom throwing endless, but unsuccesful, subs, but successfull enough to not allow the guy on top to do any damage, then how could they judge against a BJJ guy who wants to be on the bottom (assuming there are BJJ experts who prefer to be on the bottom, which I don't know if that's ludicrous or not)?

    How do judges privelege top positions when the guy under prefers to be under? IDK, I'm still trying to understand judging...
     


  5. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    I don't know enough about judging, but does this maybe indicate how judging is faulty, for example? If someone is on the bottom throwing endless, but unsuccesful, subs, but successfull enough to not allow the guy on top to do any damage, then how could they judge against a BJJ guy who wants to be on the bottom (assuming there are BJJ experts who prefer to be on the bottom, which I don't know if that's ludicrous or not)?

    How do judges privelege top positions when the guy under prefers to be under? IDK, I'm still trying to understand judging...


    Well, in MMA, especially, there are huge advantages to being on top. Even when you have pulled guard, and even if you are a top tier BJJ practitioner, you stand a good chance of being pounded out - see how Michael Bisping pounded out Dens Kang, a BJJ black belt, in the last UFC, for example. And though most guys will try to pass to a more advantageous positions, some guys (Clay Guida, for example) make a specialty of pounding guys from within the guard. Of course, the sport is evolving, and there is a continuing arms race between guys figuring out how to GnP, and guys figuring out how to defend against strikes using the guard.

    Even if you watch the top level BJJ competitions (so, no strikes), there are very few BJJ practitioners who actually prefer the guard position. There are simply more options from a top position. BJ Penn teaches something like 110 options from the closed guard. But you can be sure that there are 10 times as many options from the top position.

    The only time I've seen BJJ guys pull guard willingly in recent MMA competitions is out of shear frustration at not being able to get a successful takedown.
     


  6. Lendo

    Lendo Senior member

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    Demain Maia is one of the few that come to mind who pull guard b/c most of the time they will get a submission out of it in mma.
     


  7. Teacher

    Teacher Senior member

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate this idea that positioning is more important than actual control/damage. I've seen more than one fight where a guy has purposefully pulled guard, come VERY close more than once to submitting the guy, and then lost despite the fact that the ONLY thing the guy on top did was defend himself (no real damage whatsoever). It's crap, if you ask me.
     


  8. Brian SD

    Brian SD Moderator

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate this idea that positioning is more important than actual control/damage. I've seen more than one fight where a guy has purposefully pulled guard, come VERY close more than once to submitting the guy, and then lost despite the fact that the ONLY thing the guy on top did was defend himself (no real damage whatsoever). It's crap, if you ask me.

    The issue is that this problem is within the scoring system, and it's not up to the judge's discretion whether or not dominant position was effective or not.
     


  9. Teacher

    Teacher Senior member

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    The issue is that this problem is within the scoring system, and it's not up to the judge's discretion whether or not dominant position was effective or not.

    Oh, I can understand that, as it seems to be consistent.
     


  10. Brian SD

    Brian SD Moderator

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    I know you guys are getting sick of Pride nostalgia videos, but this one has to be the best I've seen:
    IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later. I AGREE

    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags.
     


  11. Philip1978

    Philip1978 Senior member

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    I know you guys are getting sick of Pride nostalgia videos, but this one has to be the best I've seen:

    IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later. I AGREE

    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags.


    Well put together.
     


  12. somatoform

    somatoform Senior member

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    Even if you watch the top level BJJ competitions (so, no strikes), there are very few BJJ practitioners who actually prefer the guard position. There are simply more options from a top position. BJ Penn teaches something like 110 options from the closed guard. But you can be sure that there are 10 times as many options from the top position.

    The only time I've seen BJJ guys pull guard willingly in recent MMA competitions is out of shear frustration at not being able to get a successful takedown.


    You're right, it is uncommon. I think I've been watching too mant gracie reruns where he seemed to enjoy pulling guard.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate this idea that positioning is more important than actual control/damage. I've seen more than one fight where a guy has purposefully pulled guard, come VERY close more than once to submitting the guy, and then lost despite the fact that the ONLY thing the guy on top did was defend himself (no real damage whatsoever). It's crap, if you ask me.

    It does seem a bit of a paradox. You have two guys each in their element: a wrestler who wants to ground and pound, and a BJJ guy who might want to throw subs from the bottom, both are thwarting one another, so who gets the win?


    I don't see how Vera could have won. He may have had a few more damaging shots, but Couture had overall more dominant positioning throughout the fight. In general the UFC judges put a lot of emphasis on positioning and control, this is similar to how fighters who stay on their back almost always lose that round. Couture had Vera pushed up on that fence a lot, he had the overall more dominant position.

    I guess what I was not considering in the Vera-Couture match was that even though Vera was in his element (clinch position for knees) and Couture was in his element (clinch position for a takedown), and each one was thwarting the other, at least Couture was better positioned in the clinch for a takedown whereas Vera would have been better positioned in the clinch for throwing kness had he had Couture against the fence.
     


  13. Teacher

    Teacher Senior member

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    It does seem a bit of a paradox. You have two guys each in their element: a wrestler who wants to ground and pound, and a BJJ guy who might want to throw subs from the bottom, both are thwarting one another, so who gets the win?

    In my own perfect world, it would go to the guy the judges thought was more effective and on the offensive. I'm not saying control isn't important, and if all else seems equal, the guy on top should probably get the nod. I'm just saying I've seen fights where they guy on top achieves virtually nothing, the guy on bottom has him in trouble much of the time, and yet the schlub on top gets the win. In those situations, I say the guy in guard got screwed.
     


  14. millionaire75

    millionaire75 Senior member

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    Any thoughts on GSP trying out for the olympics for wrestling? You think this would reflect negatively on MMA if he can't make the team (according to casual observers at least)?
     


  15. Ambulance Chaser

    Ambulance Chaser Senior member

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    The problem with UFC judging is that it asks the judges to take into account "aggression" and "Octagon control," but not "attempts to end the fight" (as PRIDE did). If the last element was added to judging, and judges were trained in identifying submissions, the judging would become more evenhanded.
     


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