The unofficial Drake's London Appreciation Thread

[db123456]

They're lovely in person as well. You're quite right, it's a slightly shorter and trimmer fit. I purchased one several months back and it's been a great addition to the WFH clothing line up. It's remarkable value all round.

FWIW, note that the Winston & Co. cardigans seem to be a bit lighter-weight than the ones that other retailers have from Scott & Charters. For instance, the Colhay's shawl collar cardigan is advertised as a 6-ply, whereas the Winston version is advertised as 4-ply. (I don't know for sure that the Colhay's version is from Scott & Charters, but it sure looks to be.)

Now this change might well make sense for you, especially with the trimmer cut of Winston's version. I have a Scott & Charters cardigan (from NMWA), and the combination of its long/relaxed fit and its thickness make me treat it more like outerwear than a sweater. So if you're after something that's more like a sweater, you might be better off with less thickness and a shorter/trimmer cut. But this change may also help to explain the pricing differences.

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

FWIW, note that the Winston & Co. cardigans seem to be a bit lighter-weight than the ones that other retailers have from Scott & Charters. For instance, the Colhay's shawl collar cardigan is advertised as a 6-ply, whereas the Winston version is advertised as 4-ply. (I don't know for sure that the Colhay's version is from Scott & Charters, but it sure looks to be.)

Now this change might well make sense for you, especially with the trimmer cut of Winston's version. I have a Scott & Charters cardigan (from NMWA), and the combination of its long/relaxed fit and its thickness make me treat it more like outerwear than a sweater. So if you're after something that's more like a sweater, you might be better off with less thickness and a shorter/trimmer cut. But this change may also help to explain the pricing differences.

In general, these things come in different thicknesses and for this reason I don't think it makes sense to think of there as being a standard. I am pretty sure, for instance, that O'Connell's shawl collar cardigans are S&C and they are 8 ply (at least their lambswool and Donegal ones are--their cashmere ones are 12 ply). With regards to warmth, it bears mentioning that ply isn't the only thing to think about. Many lower gauge knits, for instance, are knitted much more loosely (not sure if this is the right term for it) and thus aren't as warm as one would expect from the thickness.

 

[db123456]

In general, these things come in different thicknesses and for this reason I don't think it makes sense to think of there as being a standard. I am pretty sure, for instance, that O'Connell's shawl collar cardigans are S&C and they are 8 ply (at least their lambswool and Donegal ones are--their cashmere ones are 12 ply). With regards to warmth, it bears mentioning that ply isn't the only thing to think about. Many lower gauge knits, for instance, are knitted much more loosely (not sure if this is the right term for it) and thus aren't as warm as one would expect from the thickness.

These are all good points. I do think the Winston version would be on the low end in terms of thickness, compared to other more familiar options, since I believe the NMWA version is also 6-ply (although their website copy is perhaps a bit less clear).

And your point about gauge and warmth is sound, I think. I find that my S&C cardigan feels a bit like outerwear more because of the bulkiness (and length), not so much due to warmth. It does feel like a relatively loose weave.

 

[keepondigging]

The Colonial 8ply Cashmere Shawl Collar Cardigan

Overview:The Colonial shawl collar men's cashmere cardigan sweater is crafted for a winter in the Scottish Borders using the finest quality yarn comprised of 4 ply of 2/28s cashmere.The ultimate in luxury: Cardigan Stitch Cashmere with tan leather buttons, and throat button, welted cuffs and...

www.robertold.co.uk

Another place that carries the same cardigan. With the slightly shorter cut, the pattern looks pretty much identical to the Drake's. Comes in some different colours that Drake's doesn't have too. Also Drakes are 4 ply, whereas this is 8.

 

[db123456]

The Colonial 8ply Cashmere Shawl Collar Cardigan

Overview:The Colonial shawl collar men's cashmere cardigan sweater is crafted for a winter in the Scottish Borders using the finest quality yarn comprised of 4 ply of 2/28s cashmere.The ultimate in luxury: Cardigan Stitch Cashmere with tan leather buttons, and throat button, welted cuffs and...

www.robertold.co.uk

Another place that carries the same cardigan. With the slightly shorter cut, the pattern looks pretty much identical to the Drake's. Comes in some different colours that Drake's doesn't have too. Also Drakes are 4 ply, whereas this is 8.

Interesting. I guess it's time to throw up my hands and admit that I'll never understand this stuff. This is less expensive than buying directly from Lockie and it looks identical, despite (I would have thought) being twice as thick. There must be some other difference that helps to explain it.

 

[SimonC]

The ply thing - someone may be able to explain in more detail, but there are two ways of measuring ply. One comes up with a number that’s twice that of the other way. Hence it’s probably the same thickness.

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

Interesting. I guess it's time to throw up my hands and admit that I'll never understand this stuff. This is less expensive than buying directly from Lockie and it looks identical, despite (I would have thought) being twice as thick. There must be some other difference that helps to explain it.

Important to be aware that if you are in the US you might be hit with serious duties buying UK cashmere products this expensive from abroad. If you are in the US and thinking of buying a Lockie shawl collar cardigan in cashmere, it will almost certainly be cheapest to buy from Drake's, the Armoury, or another US stockist.

 

[Jlord]

FWIW, note that the Winston & Co. cardigans seem to be a bit lighter-weight than the ones that other retailers have from Scott & Charters. For instance, the Colhay's shawl collar cardigan is advertised as a 6-ply, whereas the Winston version is advertised as 4-ply. (I don't know for sure that the Colhay's version is from Scott & Charters, but it sure looks to be.)

Now this change might well make sense for you, especially with the trimmer cut of Winston's version. I have a Scott & Charters cardigan (from NMWA), and the combination of its long/relaxed fit and its thickness make me treat it more like outerwear than a sweater. So if you're after something that's more like a sweater, you might be better off with less thickness and a shorter/trimmer cut. But this change may also help to explain the pricing differences.

"Scott & Charters use Z.Hinchcliffe yarn, a 200 year old spinner with experience in luxury woolens and cashmere. S&C also makes the shawl collar cardigan for NMWA. So I’m going to compare some of the specs for those curious.

Winston & Co. uses 4 ply merino lambswool in a 2/17nm, which is to say that their yarn is twisted twice and has a weight of 17nm. What does that mean? It means 17 1000m strands weigh 1 kg. The sweater weighs just over 1lb.

NMWA uses what seems to be 6 ply Z. Hinchcliffe lambswool in a 1/15nm. This difference means the NMWA cardigan uses a heavier yarn and more of it. So the price difference between the two starts to become clear."

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

But O'Connell's is 8 ply and cheaper still!

In all seriousness, I think people should get what they like and support the stores they want to support. Different stores will have different specs on their products and people shouldn't assume that just because two things are by the same maker that they are the same design. That being said, I think it worthwhile to pay attention to who makes what with knitwear, because although knitwear makers may play around with things like yarn, ply, and fit, they tend to be consistent on a lot of other stuff. A S&C shawl collar cardigan has a distinctive knit, shawl collar, and quality of make regardless of the fit or the ply or the color.

 

[hpreston]

But O'Connell's is 8 ply and cheaper still!

In all seriousness, I think people should get what they like and support the stores they want to support. Different stores will have different specs on their products and people shouldn't assume that just because two things are by the same maker that they are the same design. That being said, I think it worthwhile to pay attention to who makes what with knitwear, because although knitwear makers may play around with things like yarn, ply, and fit, they tend to be consistent on a lot of other stuff. A S&C shawl collar cardigan has a distinctive knit, shawl collar, and quality of make regardless of the fit or the ply or the color.

Bolded bears repeating, especially in this thread.

On to your second point, while general quality etc. may be consistent across a manufacturer, even the yarn has a large impact on the final product. Example, the S&C solid color yarn cardigans from NMWA have a very different fit than the Donegal yarn S&C cardigans from NMWA….

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

Bolded bears repeating, especially in this thread.

On to your second point, while general quality etc. may be consistent across a manufacturer, even the yarn has a large impact on the final product. Example, the S&C solid color yarn cardigans from NMWA have a very different fit than the Donegal yarn S&C cardigans from NMWA….

I don't think you are disagreeing with me.

 

[db123456]

But O'Connell's is 8 ply and cheaper still!

In all seriousness, I think people should get what they like and support the stores they want to support. Different stores will have different specs on their products and people shouldn't assume that just because two things are by the same maker that they are the same design. That being said, I think it worthwhile to pay attention to who makes what with knitwear, because although knitwear makers may play around with things like yarn, ply, and fit, they tend to be consistent on a lot of other stuff. A S&C shawl collar cardigan has a distinctive knit, shawl collar, and quality of make regardless of the fit or the ply or the color.

I guess I got us started on this little jag, but I totally agree with this. My original comment was sort of offered in this spirit -- maybe I veered a bit with the pricing point, but the main idea was to note how one of the flagged options might differ from more familiar ones, even if it was coming from the same manufacturer. And the differences can be good, of course -- here, for instance, you might prefer a lighter-weight cardigan with less bulk.

 

[hpreston]

I don't think you are disagreeing with me.

I am not at all, just expanding a bit your second point with a recent experience.

We are in violent agreement.

 

[mbb355]

Anyone tried the new jeans yet? They're quite expensive. On the other hand, it's difficult to find well-cut, high-rise denim, particularly in such a wide variety of colors.

 

[Gerry Nelson]

Have perused A. Hume a few times but just looked into shipping charges, is it really 50GBP for all orders up to 500? That’s more than the beanies themselves.

Has anyone shopped there?

I just bought a Lockie shawl cardigan from them. The shipping to Australia was UKP50 by Fed Ex so I asked for cheaper options. They responded, said they were exploring options and offered to ship it via Royal Mail for UKP25. They were great to deal with and quick to respond. Just write to them.