The Official Dieworkwear Appreciation Thread

[Van Veen]

Which private equity firm bought A Suitable Wardrobe? Unionmade? The Archive?

Your article is about Brooks Brothers, not A Suitable Wardrobe, Unionmade, or the Archive.

 

[dieworkwear]

Your article is about Brooks Brothers, not A Suitable Wardrobe, Unionmade, or the Archive.

The point of the post isn't about Brooks Brothers. It's about people who don't make the connection between thier consumer behavior and market outcomes. "I can't believe they're going out of business," says a man who never pays full price.

The second to last paragraph talks about factories such as Hertling and Gitman. People say they feel bad about American manufacturing dying ... but then they don't buy American-made goods at full price. They wait until it's 70% off, at which point the store is no longer to stock that brand. The brand then has to find cheaper factories abroad.

Not just about factories, but everything.

 

[FlyingHorker]

Dangerous to start talking about what we need though, isn't it? Nobody *needs* a bespoke suit, or a pair of $400 trousers or $500 shoes. I've worked with multi-millionaires who barely spent $1500 a decade on clothes and nobody batted an eye.

To answer your question, though, I certainly would prefer to opt for fewer, high quality items. But at the same time, I am not educated enough to really have concrete preferences for manufacturers (at this point). I don't know enough to understand why a gun check sport coat from NMWA costs 3x what a similar looking sport coat costs from Spier & Mackay (I'm learning, but I'm not there yet). So for me, it would be absolutely silly to buy the higher cost item. A cotton workshirt from RRL doesn't get me excited at $199, but when it's on sale for $99 it's worth checking out.

If I understand correctly, S&M is much cheaper due to being made in China, and also doesn't carry other brands. Only what they make, so less mark up.

NMWA clothing looks like it's made mostly in western nations, and they carry products made by other companies.

 

[mak1277]

If I understand correctly, S&M is much cheaper due to being made in China, and also doesn't carry other brands. Only what they make, so less mark up.

NMWA clothing looks like it's made mostly in western nations, and they carry products made by other companies.

I get all that. But I’m not sure that any of that is a reason to pay more, unless the garment in question is better. And I’m not educated enough to appreciate the differences to a point where it’s worth the cost difference. My statement was not a critique of NMWA or an endorsement of S&M, it was just an example of my mentality.

 

[FlyingHorker]

I get all that. But I’m not sure that any of that is a reason to pay more, unless the garment in question is better. And I’m not educated enough to appreciate the differences to a point where it’s worth the cost difference. My statement was not a critique of NMWA or an endorsement of S&M, it was just an example of my mentality.

Yeah I get it 100%. I wouldn't have been buying tailored clothing or even OCBDs if it wasn't for the much lower pricing of S&M on literally everything.

I've wondered what the working conditions are in S&M's India and China factories.

I've heard working conditions in England and Italy can be terrible too though, and "Made in Italy" is often made by underpaid, temporary foreign workers.

I recall looking at NMWA clothing for years and thinking how cool it looked, but it was completely out of my budget.

 

[gdl203]

Your article is about Brooks Brothers, not A Suitable Wardrobe, Unionmade, or the Archive.

But Brooks Brothers is not a leveraged buyout either? J Crew was though.

 

[Van Veen]

The point of the post isn't about Brooks Brothers. It's about people who don't make the connection between thier consumer behavior and market outcomes. "I can't believe they're going out of business," says a man who never pays full price.

The second to last paragraph talks about factories such as Hertling and Gitman. People say they feel bad about American manufacturing dying ... but then they don't buy American-made goods at full price. They wait until it's 70% off, at which point the store is no longer to stock that brand. The brand then has to find cheaper factories abroad.

Not just about factories, but everything.

Forgive me for missing the point when 90% of the article is about Brooks Brothers and J.Crew, mid-market brands owned by private equity firms, and operate on an "always-on-sale" business model. (The article also brings up Cone Mills White Oak plant, which closed barely a year after a buyout.)

I don't know what the solution to save American garment manufacturing is, but it's not shaming customers who shop sales. I'm one of those people who tries to save to buy a few nice things rather than a lot of disposable things, but that's not the mindset of most Americans.

 

[Van Veen]

Funny, I just found this quote from a 2002 article about the Brooks Brothers sale.

Given Shulman’s reported plans, it’s interesting that some observers contend that the 175-year-old Brooks Brothers got into trouble by straying from its upscale “classic” merchandise. “The problem with Brooks Brothers under a mass merchandiser like Marks & Spencer was that [Marks & Spencer] was not schooled in marketing to a high-dollar customer,” says Manasquan, NJ-based catalog consultant Al Schmidt, and formerly vice president of marketing for Brooks Brothers. “It’s a much different proposition.”

Same ****, different day.

 

[mak1277]

Yeah I get it 100%. I wouldn't have been buying tailored clothing or even OCBDs if it wasn't for the much lower pricing of S&M on literally everything.

I've wondered what the working conditions are in S&M's India and China factories.

I've heard working conditions in England and Italy can be terrible too though, and "Made in Italy" is often made by underpaid, temporary foreign workers.

I recall looking at NMWA clothing for years and thinking how cool it looked, but it was completely out of my budget.

It's not a budget issue for me. I'm just unwilling to pay more without understanding what I'm getting for it. Italian vs. Chinese labor is not a motivating factor for me.

 

[UrbanComposition]

It's not a budget issue for me. I'm just unwilling to pay more without understanding what I'm getting for it. Italian vs. Chinese labor is not a motivating factor for me.

That’s fair. Keep in mind that supporting the country where styles originate (Italian style from Boglioli, British style from Gieves, American style from Brooks Btothers, etc.) is a way to show those countries that you value their historical contribution to modern dress. Many of those places honed their style over the course of decades, putting significant time, resources, and money to develop it. You are therefore showing that their value extends beyond the product, e.g. everything that goes to bring that product from idea to fruition.

If it’s not a budget issue, that’s OK, but the simple fact is that all factories need to sell product in order to survive. I understand that labor costs are cheaper elsewhere, but if that is the sole reason of your choice, don’t be surprised if factories in countries where the cost-of-living is more expensive close.

The point is not whether you’re cheap or a spendthrift, or whether or not you have plenty of money or barely 2 pennies to rub together. It’s whether or not keeping factories/stores with a long history mean anything to you. If they don’t (for a variety of reasons, including poverty) then no problem, you won’t shed a tear when they go away. But if they do mean something to you, it makes little sense simply to say as much without supporting them with your wallet at a price that allows them to continue functioning.

 

[mak1277]

If it’s not a budget issue, that’s OK, but the simple fact is that all factories need to sell product in order to survive. I understand that labor costs are cheaper elsewhere, but if that is the sole reason of your choice, don’t be surprised if factories in countries where the cost-of-living is more expensive close.

The point is not whether you’re cheap or a spendthrift, or whether or not you have plenty of money or barely 2 pennies to rub together. It’s whether or not keeping factories/stores with a long history mean anything to you. If they don’t (for a variety of reasons, including poverty) then no problem, you won’t shed a tear when they go away. But if they do mean something to you, it makes little sense simply to say as much without supporting them with your wallet at a price that allows them to continue functioning.

I live in America, and I would pay a little more to buy American. I don't live in Italy or China, so I wouldn't pay more just to support one of those countries' workers over the other. Ultimately, American-made goods still need to be able to compete on quality in order to justify the higher prices. I wouldn't pay 2x, for example, for comparable quality, just to support an American factory. That truly would be charity, and my charity dollars go to other causes. I would, however, vote for candidates who support pro-US manufacturing policies.

 

[UrbanComposition]

I hear you. Personally, I value getting things from places that are well-known for a particular product: Brie from France, a cowboy hat from Texas, a suit from Sicily, etc. If Stetson disappeared because a cheaper labor force can imitate them well, I would be very sad to see a company with that kind of history go away.

Not everyone has the same values, and that’s OK. It’s just bizarre when people are sad to see those places go, but never supported them other than with lip service. It just doesn’t make sense.

 

[pblzqlcn]

That’s fair. Keep in mind that supporting the country where styles originate (Italian style from Boglioli, British style from Gieves, American style from Brooks Btothers, etc.) is a way to show those countries that you value their historical contribution to modern dress. Many of those places honed their style over the course of decades, putting significant time, resources, and money to develop it. You are therefore showing that their value extends beyond the product, e.g. everything that goes to bring that product from idea to fruition.

does this apply to brook brothers when the landmark of american clothing is an italian subsidiary?

 

[UrbanComposition]

does this apply to brook brothers when the landmark of american clothing is an italian subsidiary?

Yes. For the same reason I would be sad to see Ford and Harley Davidson go.

 

[mak1277]

I hear you. Personally, I value getting things from places that are well-known for a particular product: Brie from France, a cowboy hat from Texas, a suit from Sicily, etc. If Stetson disappeared because a cheaper labor force can imitate them well, I would be very sad to see a company with that kind of history go away.

Not everyone has the same values, and that’s OK. It’s just bizarre when people are sad to see those places go, but never supported them other than with lip service. It just doesn’t make sense.

Totally agree that it's weird when people complain but have never supported...and I guess that's really what this discussion is about, not whether you buy on sale or not.