The Official Dieworkwear Appreciation Thread

[Blake Stitched Blues]

You seem really angry all the time on this forum. Is this forum even bringing you any happiness? Why bother visiting if this place makes you upset? You seem constantly angry about the styles, products, people, and the comments posted. I don't think I've ever seen you be happy about anything on here. Why visit a place if it brings you down?

Perfectly happy, but nice ad hominem.

When you've wrongly dismissed a company as being just cemented shoes

I'm not dismissing cemented shoes. It's used a lot in things like house shoes and slippers and in some aspects I actually find them superior to GYW. It's a little like the watch hobby - we enthusiasts will type reams about the virtues of Rolex and Patek but the truth of the matter is that a $30 Timex is an objectively superior watch in many respects.

The mark-ups here aren't even actually higher?

On one item. By their own admission, the mark-up on Vass is 30%. I could doubtless find a few more examples if I had the time and inclination.

They can give sizing advice, etc.

And Aurlands or Vass can't? 90% of Norwegians speak English as a second language and I've never had an issue communicating with Vass.

Seems like the last few pages answered your question when you ask "what value does a retailer bring."

Not really no. Drakes slapping their own label on Lockie knitwear/rugby shirts/Astorflex desert boots and doubling the prices is not 'value' and neither is NMWAs markups on the various products they sell.

Just my opinion of course, and obviously yours is different. That said, are you really able to take a step back and look at these things from a consumer perspective rather than as an influencer who advertises both stores? I've seen NMWA get Styleforum editorials changed for poking fun at the store. Would they also withdraw their advertising if you were to be even remotely critical?

 

[dieworkwear]

I have two Magee overcoats and highly recommend them. One in a navy wool/cashmere and another in a grey salt and pepper donegal tweed. They're built like tanks and will probably outlast me. Mine are the regular shouldered version with a light shoulder pad to give some structure and shape. I'm not cool enough to be able to rock the slouch-y raglan sleeves.

If you can, wait until the sales and buy directly from the Magee website in January/February when they really start slashing the prices and always seem to have a full range of sizes left. I picked up both of mine for €120 each.

This is the sort of sales shopping I was talking about. On the one hand, you say that your Magee Donegal coats are "built like tanks," but then you tell people to not buy them until they're slashed down to €120 each. Which makes sense if you're a strategic shopper because that's when they're lowest priced. But then you can't be surprised when the company starts making what you call "dreck." At some point, the company will realize it can't sustain a business selling this type of thing. So then they'll make poly-blend, Chinese made coats in some fashionable style. And then the same people who said "don't buy until they slash prices" will complain about offshoring, the disappearance of brands and factories, and poly-blend materials.

There's nothing wrong with shopping on a budget. I literally spend hours every week trying to dig up eBay finds for PTO readers. It literally takes forever, as it's three roundups per week and I try to gather enough links to fill six pages in a Google Docs. I'd like to think that my posts at PTO also cover a range of budgets.

But if you're shopping all the time and have a huge wardrobe, I'm not convinced that someone couldn't consolidate some of those buys and shop full prices at the shops they love, so that people working there can also survive.

Just my opinion of course, and obviously yours is different. That said, are you really able to take a step back and look at these things from a consumer perspective rather than as an influencer who advertises both stores?

Both stores? If you're talking about Drake's, I'm just a fan of the company. They don't advertise on my site. My only financial relationship with them is as a customer (and I buy stuff at the same prices as everyone else).

I think I can maintain a bit of objectivity, but it's true that I would like these companies survive. I don't think consumers and businesses are engaged with each other in some kind of battle. I think consumers benefit when there are better businesses.

 

[sood]

Perfectly happy, but nice ad hominem.



I'm not dismissing cemented shoes. It's used a lot in things like house shoes and slippers and in some aspects I actually find them superior to GYW. It's a little like the watch hobby - we enthusiasts will type reams about the virtues of Rolex and Patek but the truth of the matter is that a $30 Timex is an objectively superior watch in many respects.



On one item. By their own admission, the mark-up on Vass is 30%. I could doubtless find a few more examples if I had the time and inclination.



And Aurlands or Vass can't? 90% of Norwegians speak English as a second language and I've never had an issue communicating with Vass.



Not really no. Drakes slapping their own label on Lockie knitwear/rugby shirts/Astorflex desert boots and doubling the prices is not 'value' and neither is NMWAs markups on the various products they sell.

Just my opinion of course, and obviously yours is different. That said, are you really able to take a step back and look at these things from a consumer perspective rather than as an influencer who advertises both stores? I've seen NMWA get Styleforum editorials changed for poking fun at the store. Would they also withdraw their advertising if you were to be even remotely critical?

 

[Blake Stitched Blues]

This is the sort of sales shopping I was talking about. On the one hand, you say that your Magee Donegal coats are "built like tanks," but then you tell people to not buy them until they're slashed down to €120 each. Which makes sense if you're a strategic shopper because that's when they're lowest priced. But then you can't be surprised when the company starts making what you call "dreck." At some point, the company will realize it can't sustain a business selling this type of thing. So then they'll make poly-blend, Chinese made coats in some fashionable style. And then the same people who said "don't buy until they slash prices" will complain about offshoring, the disappearance of brands and factories, and poly-blend materials.

There's nothing wrong with shopping on a budget. I literally spend hours every week trying to dig up eBay finds for PTO readers. It literally takes forever, as it's three roundups per week and I try to gather enough links to fill six pages in a Google Docs. I'd like to think that my posts at PTO also cover a range of budgets.

But if you're shopping all the time and have a huge wardrobe, I'm not convinced that someone couldn't consolidate some of those buys and shop full prices at the shops they love, so that people working there can also survive.

Magee have been making their garments off-shore for years now, and most of them contain a degree of polyester. They're a business, not a charity, and doing so increases their profit margins. And I'm a customer who wants maximum value for my money., not a patron of the arts.

But well done on dragging up a post from two years ago where I committed the mortal sin of buying something on sale.

 

[sood]

Magee have been making their garments off-shore for years now, and most of them contain a degree of polyester. They're a business, not a charity, and doing so increases their profit margins. And I'm a customer who wants maximum value for my money., not a patron of the arts.

But well done on dragging up a post from two years ago where I committed the mortal sin of buying something on sale.

 

[dieworkwear]

Magee have been making their garments off-shore for years now, and most of them contain a degree of polyester. They're a business, not a charity, and doing so increases their profit margins. And I'm a customer who wants maximum value for my money., not a patron of the arts.

But well done on dragging up a post from two years ago where I committed the mortal sin of buying something on sale.

I didn't drag it up. I only came across it because someone posted it here on the last page.

Anyway, no need to be a patron of the arts then. But when the companies you love start doing all the stuff you lament, I hope you make the connection.

 

[UrbanComposition]

Magee have been making their garments off-shore for years now, and most of them contain a degree of polyester. They're a business, not a charity, and doing so increases their profit margins. And I'm a customer who wants maximum value for my money, not a patron of the arts.

But well done on dragging up a post from two years ago where I committed the mortal sin of buying something on sale.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[aristoi bcn]

This is interesting to me. Are you referring to brick and mortar retail experiences here? Do you mean that you'd rather travel/commute to a store in an out-of-the-way location (cheaper) than shop at a central (premium) location?

Yes. I know what the rents are in big cities and I just feel ripped off (by the landlords, not the retailers) when paying those premiums. What % of a Savile row suit goes to pay the rent? In the end you are not simply supporting a good retailer or artisan because most of the margin goes to the estate owner. But this discussion is beyond the topic if the thread.

 

[gdl203]

Yes. I know what the rents are in big cities and I just feel ripped off (by the landlords, not the retailers) when paying those premiums. What % of a Savile row suit goes to pay the rent? In the end you are not simply supporting a good retailer or artisan because most of the margin goes to the estate owner. But this discussion is beyond the topic if the thread.

I get it. Paying for a fancy flagship location feels like paying for marketing or glossy magazine ads, in a way. The flipside is the convenience of a central location - which should add real value to many.

 

[Sartorium]

Perfectly happy, but nice ad hominem.

Ah yes, the classic ad hominem of "Are you ok, bro? You seem unhappy."

 

[aristoi bcn]

I get it. Paying for a fancy flagship location feels like paying for marketing or glossy magazine ads, in a way. The flipside is the convenience of a central location - which should add real value to many.

I see your point but for me a premium location adds 10% value and 90% cost. In the same way I don't buy anything made in third world countries because to me companies producing there are merely profit driven and dumping companies making in EU/USA/Japan I don't fancy paying premiums that go to certain pockets. And I think we are missing this point in this thread because we are talking about the magre margins independent retailers are getting without seeing the elephant in the room: rent costs are not proportional to the value they add.

 

[LA Guy]

Well, for starters, focusing on what you call hobbyists (let's call it for what it is BTW: fishing and golf are hobbies. Wearing clothes is a not a hobby. We're just a bunch of broke-ass dandies) is clearly not working that well, or else this discussion wouldn't be happening in the first place.

More seriously, strictly from a sales perspective, you don't want hobbyists; you want people who can afford expensive things. There aren't that many hobbyists and they don't have any more disposable income than anyone else. They've also already sort of decided whether they will buy or not buy and you're not going to change their minds much one way or another with your marketing. It's a bad tree to bark up.

What you want to tap into is the section of the general population that doesn't think twice about $25 socks or $1000 shoes. They're happy to just pay whatever you ask them to pay because for them that is the easiest way to get what they want as quickly as possible. Find out where these guys hang out, and go after them. Of course, as non-"hobbyists" only a smallish fraction of this pie will be interested in this stuff, but it's a big pie, certainly bigger than the one that regularly posts here, and people in that slice are going to have much higher conversion rates than someone waffling back and forth between Armoury and Bryceland's sites before buying from neither.

A hobbyist is going to demand that you create a ton of value before they pay MSRP, which is very time-consuming for a retailer, and, considering that everyone keeps on waiting for sales anyway, I'd say this is very much a losing battle. We all have ideals about the value a retailer provides but ultimately are enabled or bottlenecked by our wallets. A non hobbyist with a lot of disposable income will value your advice more and/or will simply value his money less, since he has a lot of it. He also has more options in general, since no matter what you do, you will not be able to someone to buy a pair of St. Crispie Treats if he simply doesn't have the funds.

I am reminded of a story a Nordstrom sales associate told me. He said his best customers treat him like a personal shopper almost. Whenever something cool comes in that he thinks they will like, he sends them a few pictures of possible outfits, and if they give him the green light he ships the items out. Nice and easy. A hobbyist probably has more of the pulse of the #menswear world sure, but these guys who buy without you having to sell to them are probably better for business.


Not to inject myself too much into this, but I think this example is helpful: for me, selling expensive capital equipment, an academic scientist can be a pleasure to talk to because he is very passionate about research and being on the cutting edge. However, he is also constantly struggling for funding and knows a lot about the exact details of what he wants to do. It takes forever to nurture one of them through the sales pipeline until it finally aligns that he has the funds and is still interested. Meanwhile, a guy from Pfizer might call us to confirm that our thing can do what he needs to do, because he has a big scary deadline coming, and he thinks this is roughly what his team is looking for, and in any case, a few hundred thousand bucks is not big deal, and we're done in a few days. This guy wasn't super interesting to talk to but when it comes to the "good cheap easy, pick two" adage, he likes good and easy and our finance team likes him.

Unfortunately, your work as an equipment salesman has very little bearing here, for any number of reasons, but the principle one being that it is not a consumer good. As a former academic (well, now reconscripted, but that's beside the point) I can say this nearly for certain. My relationshp between my equipment, which was cool, but still work, and my clothing and accessories, is very different. Moreover, fashion is definitely, for many, a hobby. A lot of people conflate :"hobby" with activity, and then fail to consider that research and acquisition are activities associated with, and sometimes the core focus, of hobbies - see coin, stamp, and pretty much any other sort of collecting.

The problems with retail have nearly nothing to do with a fairly small population of hobbyists, and much more to do with how retailers (in the aggregate have conditioned customers.

I think that maybe you missed my post after that one The cohort of hobbyists who post on a hobbyist forum and the much larger audience that look to hobbyists for third party guidance, are largely different audiences. The signal that hobbyists are sending to each other is amplified to a much wider audience. Just to give a idea, a forum this size (large) has a thousand to thousand of posts, a smaller but comparable number of privte messages a day. The audience, however, is over 1MM a month. The signal is hugely amplified beyond the active posters. Incidentally, this is pretty true across any successful public platform, not just forums..

This is especially important in an increasingly online world. I can walk into, say, a Saks Fifth Avenue, or the No Man Walks alone space (I've been there a handful of times through the years( ask a few questions and be reassured. However, the difference between online stores is not nearly as clear.

The bulk of the traffic to forums is usually through organic search for terms from logged out users who have a clear intent to purchase. They are usually looking for 1) Factual information, and 2) Social Proof.

Re 1) Hobbyists don;t need that type of guidance. To be honest, when I typed out that post, it was hardest for me to `figure out what examples to put down in the clothing and accessories categories. I rarely have any questions. I just like to chat about clothes. I am usually the one who is asked for advice, and I get fairly regular messages from brand new people asking for advice on something I posted years ago.

re. 2) Just as an example from my own, very recent experience. I recently got back into buying knives. I used to carry them back in grad school, but had fallen out of the habit, but I;ve always found them interesting. That said, the last time I had bought a knife was in probably 2001. So I asked a friend who is a bit of a hobbyist, and I started looking around at some brands that I liked at retailers. However, I did not know whether the retailer shipped fast, was reliable re. warranties and returns. Nor, given that my last knife ourchase before a few months ago were $20 kabars from an Army Surplus store, barring a few kershaws that I bought at REI or something for camping and a few chef's knives.

I did I know what super steel had what propertlies, what knives had the best lockups, what knives were durable, etc.... For that, I went to bladeforums, where there is the usual bitching and moaning. But based on what I read there, I bought several high quality knives for myself and for my wife (including emergency ones with glass breakers) Of course, the hobbyists were talking about the prices, whether this or that knife was a $425 knife (as sold) or really more of a $350 knife, etc... That made only a minor difference to me. I wanted something that fit certain criteria, and I was not going to wait and stalk sales or discounts.

tldr: the audience of a hobbyist site extends far beyond the hobbyist who are the active participants.

 

[gdl203]

I see your point but for me a premium location adds 10% value and 90% cost. In the same way I don't buy anything made in third world countries because to me companies producing there are merely profit driven and dumping companies making in EU/USA/Japan I don't fancy paying premiums that go to certain pockets. And I think we are missing this point in this thread because we are talking about the magre margins independent retailers are getting without seeing the elephant in the room: rent costs are not proportional to the value they add.

Agreed. And to be clear, it is my understanding that flagship location high rents are often considered as marketing costs - something that enhances the brand.

I'm interested in that conversation because this is a decision that I faced when deciding where to have our office/showroom. Our rent is clearly higher, being in a central Manhattan location, than it would be if we were in New Jersey or Queens. The question is: does the convenience for visitors and the resulting loyalty/business enough of a positive to counter-balance the negative of a higher rent. It's very hard to measure and I still don't know the answer.

 

[Crispyj]

Agreed. And to be clear, it is my understanding that flagship location high rents are often considered as marketing costs - something that enhances the brand.

I'm interested in that conversation because this is a decision that I faced when deciding where to have our office/showroom. Our rent is clearly higher, being in a central Manhattan location, than it would be if we were in New Jersey or Queens. The question is: does the convenience for visitors and the resulting loyalty/business enough of a positive to counter-balance the negative of a higher rent. It's very hard to measure and I still don't know the answer.

Come to Queens, I'll promise to visit more often . 95% of your products are over $110 so there aren't any tax free items anyway.

 

[sushijerk]

This Blake dude sounds like he is the type to give 1 star on yelp because supermarket pasta and tomatoes costs less than what he paid at the restaurant.