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The Official Dieworkwear Appreciation Thread

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Not all businesses are created equal.

Bespoke tailors and multi-brand luxury menswear shops are like small vineyards and art galleries.

It’s a fun passion project, once you’ve sold your first business that manufactures golf cart batteries or does commercial carpet cleaning.

Other guys in similar situations might start an arts foundation or breed dogs...

But none of it makes sense unless you’re already rich.

(And none of it is charity in the true sense of the word, or worth subsidies from the rest of us)

Im glad we live in a world with Khakis of Carmel or Axels of Vail but we have to call a spade a spade.

I don't know of any bespoke tailor or shoemaker who started his businesses after selling a company that manufactures golf cart batteries.
 

Joytropics

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I don't know of any bespoke tailor or shoemaker who started his businesses after selling a company that manufactures golf cart batteries.

Ok that’s more the boutiques.

But Daniel Day Lewis did take up bespoke shoemaking after getting rich in Hollywood.

And the people financing new bespoke shops are no doubt people who either made their money in more traditional ways, or inherited it.
 

dieworkwear

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Ok that’s more the boutiques.

But Daniel Day Lewis did take up bespoke shoemaking after getting rich in Hollywood.

And the people financing new bespoke shops are no doubt people who either made their money in more traditional ways, or inherited it.

The best bespoke businesses I know of are owned and operated by the person making the item. They're not financed by some rich person behind the scene. It's just a person making things.
 

Joytropics

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Sure, there’s a category for artisan owned and operated. Though I bet fewer and fewer with every passing year. And despite high prices, they aren’t making much money. At least according to Nicholas Templeman, and my own back of the napkin calculations.

My overall point is most of what we discuss here lives in the same world as art galleries and tourist vineyards.

it doesn’t make sense to think of these stores in the same terms as conventional profit-driven businesses, or in terms of genuine altruistic endeavors like Doctors without Borders,
 

whorishconsumer

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it doesn’t make sense to think of these stores in the same terms as conventional profit-driven businesses, or in terms of genuine altruistic endeavors like Doctors without Borders,

You mean Against Malaria.
 

Bromley

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Sometimes people who finance new bespoke shops save up money from working in dry cleaners, hotel restaurant kitchens, and tomato processing facilities, and live in houses full of roommates to get things off the ground ;)

If you're a craftsperson (any craft), and you care deeply about making the best things that you can possibly make, enthusiasts are the clients who will allow you to do that. Enthusiasts bring the most rewarding collaborations, and also bring the biggest headaches. An all-enthusiast clientele wouldn't keep the lights on, and an all-"white-whale" clientele would start to drain the work of its meaning. If you're lucky enough you might end up finding a comfortable balance of these types of clients.

James Krenov was a furniture maker who worked his whole career for an all-enthusiast clientele. He was able to reach such heights in his craft because enthusiasts who appreciated what he was doing were willing to pay for it, but he did also have to take teaching jobs on the side. One of my favorite perspectives on working with clients is from one of his books. Quoted in the spoiler below.

It bothers some of us to think that we will, if we do our very best and then decide to sell our work, be making rather expensive pieces. I have heard craftsmen say, waving a hand roughly upward, “I just cannot see making things for those people. They could buy your shop and house, too, along with the piece, but still want to bargain about an honest bit of workmanship.”

I share that feeling, but I will not be bound by it. Traveling reminds me again that there is little or no connection between wealth and that thing called good taste. Nor does money make someone a better person, or a worse person either. What it probably amounts to, for some of us at least, is that we are doing honest work, our best, with feeling in it, and we hope to meet people who will appreciate and want it. Some poor people with whom we get along very well will understand and say that they are sorry, but… Another person, of modest means perhaps, might ask to pay a bit at a time, and something tells us to trust him or her. Wealthy people come and ask the wrong questions and we feel so uneasy that some of us just do not care to let them have the piece. But there are also some with money and taste and a simple warmth that gets through our “those-people” filter; we enjoy telling them about our work, they listen-- there is contact, a kind of understanding.

Nothing else matters, really. It is all about people. The best we can do, if we need to protect our own feelings or ethics or whatever, is to sort things out in such a way that we associate with just people, regardless of what they have or do not have; the only qualification being that they are the kind of people who do not make us unhappy at our work or about our work-- that is vital. Then, if we are modest and live accordingly, we will be fair about what we ask. And these other people, whoever they are, will be fair in what they give.
 

gdl203

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I could be mistaken, but aren't you the guys who sell Vass and Aurland at enormous mark-ups over what they actually cost here in Europe? What value do you feel this is creating for the customer?
Yup that’s us. We don’t import them into the US for you guys in Europe. Or maybe you didn’t understand that part? You just named two of our lowest margin makers by the way.
 

Blake Stitched Blues

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Yup that’s us. We don’t import them into the US for you guys in Europe. Or maybe you didn’t understand that part? You just named two of our lowest margin makers by the way.

Maybe you didn't understand the question I asked?

@dieworkwear We got into this before on the Drakes thread and I don't think we're going to agree here either. You seem to be pushing the NMWA sale on the blog so you might want to update the description of the Aurlands loafers - they're cemented construction rather than Blake.
 

stuffedsuperdud

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I think many business owners are already aware of the challenges that come with having an "enthusiast" customer base, just as it sounds like you are with your business. Many want to enter new markets, but don't know how. I don't think it's as easy as "just advertise on those forums." Customer acquisition can be very costly.

This is true, but it might be a necessary evil. My company has had its share of internal arguments over how long we should try to plod along before investing in more marketing. It's a hard question, one that makes me glad I don't work in this tough industry. The current model for independent menswear retail though, which seems way too dependent on highly unreliable enthusiast money, is clearly not working.

I was surprised to find, however, that some tailors prefer the enthusiast. When talking with Dominique at Edward Sexton, he told me that his business is comprised of two types of customers: the enthusiast and the "white whale." The white whale is a wealthy customer who comes in and orders a bunch of things without much bother. He noted, however, that while white whale orders can be nice, they can also create a strain on the backend. When someone orders a ton of coats, you have to hire more support on the backend (sometimes those people are paid by pieces, as outworkers, but some can be salary). When that guy stops ordering, you're then stuck with a new cost that may be hard to shed.

The enthusiast, meanwhile, plods along with one new coat order per year. It can be much easier to grow a business this way, as you're not dealing with huge fluctuations in orders.

Bespoke isn't the same as retail though; it seems to have more in common with the service industry than sales, and understandable that in that case, the enthusiast can be treated as a reliable account that you can manage and draw a predictable stream of revenue from. You have a special product that was designed just for him, the exact opposite of a commodity, and he cannot go anywhere else as long as you keep him happy. When you're slinging socks for $25 a pop though, you need to get through to the groups of guys who would treat that the way a normal person buys a pack of Gold Toe socks at Costco, 3 for $8.99. Otherwise, you're stuck fighting an uphill battle against two guys: the one who hasn't heard of Bresciani, thinks socks are socks, and that $25 is ridiculous, or the SF guy who knows he can get it for $3 cheaper today from Mashburn #prevail, or that there might be some special The Armoury X Bresciani collab made from 5% Austro-Finnish-Mongolian super 200s vicuna next month. You don't need either of these asshats slowing you down. Don't get me wrong; if they come to you with their money, you take it, but the amount of work it takes to successfully sell to them gives you a poor return.

But what you're recommending seems to be the story of so many corporate brands who have supposedly "lost thier way" (according to enthusiasts). This is the story of Allen Edmonds, no? They pursue the capital guy, so they make cushy orange shoes in fashionable styles. The stiff, Goodyear welted stuff in classic shapes get left behind as the company pursues what they see as a better market. Then the enthusiast complains. It's very hard to convert that capital guy into stiff raw denim and drape cut suits unless you convert him into an enthusiast. They want skinny suits, comfy shoes, and untuck-able shirts.

Reading my posts and Ryan's comics, they're aimed at consumers, not industry people. What do you feel can or should be said besides "support the arts?"

Well, I am not suggesting the AE strategy...which is also every other "they sold out!" story. AE used to make only a premium product but created a whole second disposable line to enter the disposables market.What I am suggesting is that if you want to keep pushing an expensive (fairly priced, but expensive nonetheless) product, you need to find a premium audience whose bank accounts are commensurate with the cost of your stuff, guys with a very different idea of what commodities cost. I don't know how you would actually go about this (Where do they keep rich people anyway? Probably some gigantic brothel in Palo Alto / Mountain View where the workers are also Austro-Finnish-Mongolian Super200s-grade and the drywall is made out of cocaine, right?) but I do know that "Come on you hodgepodge of graduate students, mid-level engineers, and junior lawyers, pay MSRP. Please?" isn't flying right now.
 

dieworkwear

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Maybe you didn't understand the question I asked?

@dieworkwear We got into this before on the Drakes thread and I don't think we're going to agree here either. You seem to be pushing the NMWA sale on the blog so you might want to update the description of the Aurlands loafers - they're cemented construction rather than Blake.

I'm not sure that's true. Are you sure?





brown-leather.jpg




Regarding the Drakes' thread, I don't remember what we discussed there. I generally believe in supporting companies that bring you value. If you don't like a particular business, I don't see any reason to support them. But whatever company brings you value, I suggest shopping there and supporting their work.
 

gdl203

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Maybe you didn't understand the question I asked?

@dieworkwear We got into this before on the Drakes thread and I don't think we're going to agree here either. You seem to be pushing the NMWA sale on the blog so you might want to update the description of the Aurlands loafers - they're cemented construction rather than Blake.
Not the line we sell. Aurlandskoen makes a lot of different shoes with different constructions. There are cemented entry-level penny loafers (typically with rubber soles) that are sold in the 2,200-2,500 krone in Norway. The factory makes the line we buy at a different quality level and they are Blake-stitched on leather soles and upgraded upper leather. These sell for 3,500 NOK.

DF316D1A-284C-4F16-87A7-53E927CA6780.jpeg

Interestingly, they are also working on Norwegian-welted construction options for next seasons - something I’m quite excited about

oops... sharing a video on an iPhone is HARD ??

 
Last edited:

Blake Stitched Blues

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I'm not sure that's true. Are you sure?





View attachment 1424195



Regarding the Drakes' thread, I don't remember what we discussed there. I generally believe in supporting companies that bring you value. If you don't like a particular business, I don't see any reason to support them. But whatever company brings you value, I suggest shopping there and supporting their work.


Yeah, the examples I handled a few years ago were all cemented, similar to what you'd see on a hard soled slipper/house shoe. I'd have preferred the rubber soled version as the leather soles were very thin and incredibly stiff. Looks like they have branched out to other constructions now also.
 

norMD

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I could be mistaken, but aren't you the guys who sell Vass and Aurland at enormous mark-ups over what they actually cost here in Europe? What value do you feel this is creating for the customer?
Maybe you didn't understand the question I asked?

@dieworkwear We got into this before on the Drakes thread and I don't think we're going to agree here either. You seem to be pushing the NMWA sale on the blog so you might want to update the description of the Aurlands loafers - they're cemented construction rather than Blake.


I live in Norway and drive past the Aurland factory several times each year. Yesterday I was out shopping and looked at several of their shoes. As already stated by @gdl203 they now have a Blake stitched line and he sells them for the exact amount as they cost here in Norway. 3500 nok/355 usd.
 

LA Guy

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I wouldn't call it "charity" but a lot of times, the argument from DWW, PTO, RCS cartoons, etc. in favor of going to small retailers and paying MSRP for the finer things they purvey reads more like a flyer from the local community center telling me to support the arts than it does adcopy for a successful retail enterprise.

A problem from my 10,000ft perspective is that these cool little shops need to figure out how to attract non-enthusiasts who just want nice clothes. They don't have a lot of objections and are happy to listen to your advice and then pay you and be on their way. In other words, they are not very sophisticated on the topic but do have money. Enthusiasts are exactly what you don't need: they are very knowledgeable on the topic and thus don't value your advice, they present tons of hurdles, memorize prices, and perhaps most importantly, they are not particularly numerous or wealthy. They should be a minority of your clientele, people who come in occasionally to splurge on something for fun at MSRP (because you only sell at MSRP of course), but I thinking relying on them to stay afloat is a doomed battle. TLDR I get you guys are passionate clotheshorses but you should advertise more on forums on where VCs and hedge fund managers hang out maybe, vice this impoverished dump.

All that said, I am not in the rags industry, but I am in sales (high end capital equipment; super expensive stuff with crappy margins and an obnoxiously sophisticated customer base....it's a tough gig. For us, industry users are our rich guys and academic users are the enthusiasts; guess which ones are easier to deal with and carry the day for us.). I could be be wrong but probably not 100% wrong, so take what you will from it.

Everyone who drops cash on any hobby/thing that will spend money on checks the enthusiast forums. If I'm getting a vintage Rolex or Omega, and want to gauge a fair price and see if a vendor is legit, I go to Watchuseek or Omegaforums. If I want to see about the sizing of a Hermes Bracelet, I go to Purseforum. If I am looking for Visvim or Hender Scheme sizing, or ideas about leather jackets, I come here. If I am looking to see what is a good titanium handled folding knife that opens fast and retains a good edge, I go to Bladeforums.

The enthusiast forums are where the knowledge and state of th hobby are going to be at. That's where I get the unvarnshed opinions of people who probably think way to much about a hobby, and can tell me if the latest version of the Visvim Ute Moc fits differently than last year's version. The signal is amplified way past the core membership. I am only a member of a few forums, and really, only post here, but I do look for information and even regularly read, other forums.

What rational reason, when all the online resources are at my fingertips, would I go to a place where the membership talks about whatever hedge fund managers talk about, to figure out what type of bladstock I want for my custom knife, or how thick is the Caentino fabrics on a Drake's pullover. Please.
 

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