The Official Dieworkwear Appreciation Thread

[dieworkwear]

But that does not equate with the belief that slovenliness or the refusal to differentiate apparel depending on the occasion or wearing vulgar apparel are evidence of laziness or solecism or even rudeness.

When you step out into modern society, assuming you don't just step into a StyleForum meet-up every day (and never step into public society in between from your home to that meet up), you probably see everyone around you dressed in a range of clothing. Whether it's a mix of aesthetics or just your general Gap kind of clothing, what do you assume about those people? That they're all criminals?

When you step onto public transit and see nurses, doctors, graduate students, construction workers, laborers, tech workers, and whatever else, do you just assume they're all bad people? How do you look upon your own family members who are probably not wearing three-piece suits every day? (By family I mean your actual family, not your StyFo family)

Coarseness of one kind begets coarseness of other kinds. Veneer is less important than underlying substance but it is not entirely unimportant.

I genuinely don't care about coarseness in behavior, to be honest. I find that stuff to be mostly classist nonsense. You can have coarse manners and still be a kind, compassionate, and sincere person. You can also be a very refined person and be a selfish dickhead.

 

[Newcomer]

Derek, you officially made it:

Everybody in SoHo Posts Like This Now

Unpacking menswear's favorite meme.

www.gq.com

 

[dieworkwear]

Derek, you officially made it:

Everybody in SoHo Posts Like This Now

Unpacking menswear's favorite meme.

www.gq.com

OK, well those two in my meme were dressed casually and coarsely, and they were, in fact, criminals.

 

[smittycl]

When you step onto public transit and see nurses, doctors, graduate students, construction workers, laborers, tech workers, and whatever else, do you just assume they're all bad people? How do you look upon your own family members who are probably not wearing three-piece suits every day? (By family I mean your actual family, not your StyFo family)

I genuinely don't care about coarseness in behavior, to be honest. I find that stuff to be mostly classist nonsense. You can have coarse manners and still be a kind, compassionate, and sincere person. You can also be a very refined person and be a selfish dickhead.

The only real judgment I usually pass it on utter slobs. Granted that is subjective but paying attention to detail matters, at least in my world.

I think we've got well down into a rabbit hole here. Coarseness of behavior is a classist thing now? I do care about coarseness and tend not to associate with folks of that nature. Too tiresome.

Also, coarse slobs are the worst.

 

[dieworkwear]

The only real judgment I usually pass it on utter slobs. Granted that is subjective but paying attention to detail matters, at least in my world.

I think we've got well down into a rabbit hole here. Coarseness of behavior is a classist thing now? I do care about coarseness and tend not to associate with folks of that nature. Too tiresome.

Also, coarse slobs are the worst.

When people say someone is "coarse," I assume they mean that person cusses, is loud, or generally acts "uneducated."

I don't know what to say, to be honest. I don't know what world people grew up in, but it seems so far off and strange from my actual lived experience. I grew up in a low-income Vietnamese neighborhood where many people were loud and cussed a lot. Some of the most genuine and sweetest people I've met in my life were from there, and they'd have your back in any situation. Later, when I moved to an upper-middle-class white neighborhood, some people were really "well mannered," but they were terribly phony and wouldn't do anything for you.

That said, my college roommate was very polished in his mannerisms. He spoke in a somewhat formal way, was very quiet, and somewhat meek. A bit Victorian in mannerisms, but he was an absolute mensch. I wish I kept in touch with him because he had the rare character of being kind and thoughtful. I think you can judge someone's virtue directly on the virtue itself, rather than using superficialities in mannerisms.

I also don't get this idea that slobs aren't dependable. In grad school, some of the people in the math department didn't even shower. I knew a math PhD student who barely changed his clothes. If you had to draw a line, the relationship between dress and competence probably runs in the opposite direction. People who are very competent in my field are generally dressed poorly.

I again just wish that, whenever someone makes these assumptions about virtue and dress, I could see their handwriting.

 

[Luigi_M]

Stupid question ... what's your field?

 

[smittycl]

When people say someone is "coarse," I assume they mean that person cusses, is loud, or generally acts "uneducated."

I don't know what to say, to be honest. I don't know what world people grew up in, but it seems so far off and strange from my actual lived experience. I grew up in a low-income Vietnamese neighborhood where many people were loud and cussed a lot. Some of the most genuine and sweetest people I've met in my life were from there, and they'd have your back in any situation. Later, when I moved to an upper-middle-class white neighborhood, some people were really "well mannered," but they were terribly phony and wouldn't do anything for you.

That said, my college roommate was very polished in his mannerisms. He spoke in a somewhat formal way, was very quiet, and somewhat meek. A bit Victorian in mannerisms, but he was an absolute mensch. I wish I kept in touch with him because he had the rare character of being kind and thoughtful.

I also don't get this idea that slobs aren't dependable. In grad school, some of the people in the math department didn't even shower. I knew a math PhD student who barely changed his clothes. If you had to draw a line, the relationship between dress and competence probably runs in the opposite direction. People who are very competent in my field are generally dressed poorly.

I guess I just don't know what world people live in when they draw these assumptions.

Yeah, I know plenty of Absent Minded Professors who can do advanced theoretical math but can't seem to bother with everyday stuff. I was thinking of boorish behavior. Loud, gruff, obnoxious, sexist comments, might as well be wearing an Archie Bunker t-shirt and swearing at the game on TV with their fifth Natty Boh in hand. I'll admit to being a bit of an elitist where public behavior is concerned.

There are examples of highly capable people who are also slobs but I think they are not the norm. I would argue there are more folks that just don't care. If they don't care enough to not be slobs then I assume they don't care enough in many other aspects of their life. Harsh, maybe, but a little effort goes a long way.

 

[dieworkwear]

Loud, gruff, obnoxious, sexist comments, might as well be wearing an Archie Bunker t-shirt and swearing at the game on TV with their fifth Natty Boh in hand. I'll admit to being a bit of an elitist where public behavior is concerned.

I think you're conflating delivery and content. Loud and gruff is just delivery. Sexist is content.

IMO, this is the problem whenever people talk about this stuff. They imbue the judgment already into their description, but the description doesn't really represent the difficulty of this proxy in real life. If you assume that people who are loud and gruff are bad people, then you assume that for all sorts of people who may not hold views you find to be contemptible. That can include taxi drivers, blue-collar workers, or just people from different cultural backgrounds. If you hear people laughing loudly in public, or saying "oh **** Billy how you doing?" do you assume those people lack virtue (real virtue, such as courage, generosity, compassion, etc?).

There are examples of highly capable people who are also slobs but I think they are not the norm. I would argue there are more folks that just don't care. If they don't care enough to not be slobs then I assume they don't care enough in many other aspects of their life. Harsh, maybe, but a little effort goes a long way.

How is your penmanship? Can you furnish a sample?

 

[smittycl]

I think you're conflating delivery and content. Loud and gruff is just delivery. Sexist is content.

IMO, this is the problem whenever people talk about this stuff. They imbue the judgment already into their description, but the description doesn't really represent the difficulty of this proxy in real life. If you assume that people who are loud and gruff are bad people, then you assume that for all sorts of people who may not hold views you find to be contemptible. That can include taxi drivers, blue-collar workers, or just people from different cultural backgrounds. If you hear people laughing loudly in public, or saying "oh **** Billy how you doing?" do you assume those people lack virtue (real virtue, such as courage, generosity, compassion, etc?).



How is your penmanship? Can you furnish a sample?

I think we are talking around each other again. I'll just leave it as boorish behavior is not my thing. I shouldn't have used loud and gruff. No, I do not assume people who curse loudly lack virtue. I like the word decorum even if it triggers the cultural issues discussed earlier (or maybe in another thread, they all blend together after a while).

My penmanship sucks and has always sucked since I was a kid. I know where you're going with that...

 

[Chaconne]

Another reason to avoid a jury of your peers.

It’s not about justification, but judgement and relevance. If someone is on trial for armed robbery the fact that they have been arrested for pyromania is irrelevant. Even in prisons some of the prisoners shun other prisoners for crimes they find abhorrent and vice versa. . Just because someone fails in one area there is no indication they fail in other areas.
People who dress slovenlydress slovenly and that is all you know about them based on their appearance.

 

[smittycl]

Another reason to avoid a jury of your peers.

It’s not about justification, but judgement and relevance. If someone is on trial for armed robbery the fact that they have been arrested for pyromania is irrelevant. Even in prisons some of the prisoners shun other prisoners for crimes they find abhorrent and vice versa. . Just because someone fails in one area there is no indication they fail in other areas.
People who dress slovenlydress slovenly and that is all you know about them based on their appearance.

Fair enough. It’s getting a little Facebooky here.

 

[dauster]

Re. the latest article on clothing, respect and respectability, etc.

If the thesis is that very informal or garish or untidy clothes are NOT proof of moral depravity or professional incompetence, that sets the bar pretty low. Sure; poor clothes are a fairly trivial shortcoming compared to, day, being a complete b#####d.

But that does not equate with the belief that slovenliness or the refusal to differentiate apparel depending on the occasion or wearing vulgar apparel are evidence of laziness or solecism or even rudeness.

The fact that the practice is now widespread is not rationally that relevant, any more than casual nationalistic chauvinism or littering or wanton energy waste can be justified due to their frequency.

Revisionist relativistic readings of social history have tended to prove poor explanations. Coarseness of one kind begets coarseness of other kinds. Veneer is less important than underlying substance but it is not entirely unimportant.

I feel like I should have gone for my masters degree after reading this post...but from the 50% that I understood I gather that you think depending on how someone dresses you can deduct if he or she is lazy or has other shortcomings. I mean c'mon there are so many people (including parts of my own family) that simply have no interest and or no time to deal with the question " how do i dress appropriately today". That includes people like my boss that may have a lot of money but have never experienced an environment where someone taught them a sense of style or aesthetics.

 

[smittycl]

I feel like I should have gone for my masters degree after reading this post...but from the 50% that I understood I gather that you think depending on how someone dresses you can deduct if he or she is lazy or has other shortcomings. I mean c'mon there are so many people (including parts of my own family) that simply have no interest and or no time to deal with the question " how do i dress appropriately today". That includes people like my boss that may have a lot of money but have never experienced an environment where someone taught them a sense of style or aesthetics.

Yes, I experience the same thing. My boss has five ill-fitting Tom James suits and just wears them sequentially. Works for him I guess. He is excellent is most everything else.

All I've tried to convey is attention to detail is important to me. And maybe don't be a boor? Rules to live by!

In honor of the late Terry Jones here are some basic rules to live by:

 

[dieworkwear]

the 1990s:

Spoiler

today:

Spoiler

Do you see how fucked this is?

 

[Alexidb]

One sells his brethren for food, the other is an ambassador for class warfare. Not sure where you’re going with this.