The official CELINE thread

[Deonfate]

The boutique in the video looks like a thrift store. The ill fitting clothes based on measurement from times past, the cluttering of the garments, the faded denim, the muddy color palette, the randomness of the styling and silhouettes. The coats are so awkward like the hips shoulder ratio is so off, the back vent look like it's about to shred but the shoulder seam is slouching. Is this serious?

Speaking of ill proportions, did you guys see the court jester shoes vacarello did? He really outdid him self this time. I never thought that it's possible for his menswear to be fuglier and cringier. The whole collection seems like parody of a hedi collection. The poor guy just doesn''t have it. Even at his lowest point slimane still outdo his imitators, they have nothing on him. SLP is thriving just because of its steady and very efficient corporate and organizational system. Creatively the brand been dead for a long time.

 

[kieran84]

Yeah looks like stuff you'd find at tk max or a jumble sale to me. Anyone buying this better make sure they're sure of what they're buying because I imagine there will be no resale value with any of this. Would have a hard time even giving it away.

 

[RedVelvetWounds]

I guess we all know what Vaccarello's mood board looked like. TKP on a diet (so you can squeeze into those skin-tight jeans)

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all from vogue

One thing I will say about Saint Laurent is that their models, hair and makeup have been consistently better than Celine's in my personal opinion.

Would have a hard time even giving it away.

Now I'm just imagining some poor African kid in a donated Celine outfit.

 

[godnose]

The boutique in the video looks like a thrift store. The ill fitting clothes based on measurement from times past, the cluttering of the garments, the faded denim, the muddy color palette, the randomness of the styling and silhouettes. The coats are so awkward like the hips shoulder ratio is so off, the back vent look like it's about to shred but the shoulder seam is slouching. Is this serious?

Speaking of ill proportions, did you guys see the court jester shoes vacarello did? He really outdid him self this time. I never thought that it's possible for his menswear to be fuglier and cringier. The whole collection seems like parody of a hedi collection. The poor guy just doesn''t have it. Even at his lowest point slimane still outdo his imitators, they have nothing on him. SLP is thriving just because of its steady and very efficient corporate and organizational system. Creatively the brand been dead for a long time.

Yeah looks like stuff you'd find at tk max or a jumble sale to me. Anyone buying this better make sure they're sure of what they're buying because I imagine there will be no resale value with any of this. Would have a hard time even giving it away.

I guess this really isn't appealing to all people! I absolutely loved this collection. I mean, none of this is by accident. The cuts are taking from another era, but there's nothing about time that makes one cut inherently better than another, it's just that the skinny thing has been done.

Walk through a few areas of east London and note, broadly:
who is in skinny stuff - older Essex boys on the main roads of Shoreditch, all gym-going, all out and lairy getting drunk trying to meet girls
who is in baggier cuts - younger, more modest types, grungier, creative, having a smoke, a drink by the canals in Haggerston, in quieter parts like London Fields and Victoria Park. I could genuinely photograph this phenomenon every weekend.

It's obvious they're looking here because there is a CELINE billboard every 50 metres.

The aesthetic is to look a bit more thrifted and modest, but then hitting with that Celine edge as well. It's being able to afford to not look fancy, but then the details, and the logo (the Essex boys won't know Celine) is the shibboleth, that's why Celine is an insider brand right now. Looking at the details, the patterns cut - the insert panels on that denim zebra jacket are pretty unusual and would have required a talented pattern cutter to make them, the zip details on those leather jackets, all extra details, that you won't actually find in high street clothing at all, because it adds a lot of cost and takes a knack to get them right. It might look down-dressed, but the key is the shibboleth. You can wear this and disappear a bit, but to those that know, you'll be recognised.

Hedi knows who he identifies with and he's executing it. For a guy in his 50s, it's remarkable how he's got his finger on it so well.

 

[pockets]

Hello all, this is my first post. And, well, it says something that Celine TDK and TKP enthused me enough to want to talk about this house enough, so I joined this forum. Here are my thoughts.

For me TDK and (especially) TKP were the first collections to really resonate with me and make me feel like I had a spiritual home in a fashion house. Quite a statement, I know... Before this, I had been a Lanvin fan under Lucas Ossendrijver - amazing designer, so sad he got lost in the womenswear ructions at Lanvin.

Honestly, before SS 2021 TDK Celine Homme looked very underwhelming to me. It was dated and just felt like a throwback to something no one wanted, it was almost awkward. I have never like Hedi's work before. I absolutely hated the indy band skinny jeans scene in the mid 2000s and it never worked for me. I shunned fashion at that point in a way, waiting for the scene to change. So I am not a Hedi fan-boy per se. I just have become one since 2021.

To me, Hedi found his groove with Celine from TDK onwards. The roomier fits, embracing new (or 90s recycled trends) and urban and more hiphop styles. I even like the big logos... The big CELINE on the hoodies and across the back of jackets, just looks good and street. It's very urban, yet it's a puzzlement to the drug dealers who wear Gucci and Balenciaga etc. They haven't caught onto Celine, and (I kinda hope they don't)...

Celine somehow feels a bit "underground" almost. It's also a "new" house from the 60s, but new with pedigree oweing a lot to Philo's work, of course, and that's perfect. It's nowhere near a household name, yet it's putting out amazing high-end clothes and getting substantial backing. "CELINE" is also a very feminine name, and the appropriation of it onto bruising bomber jackets is kinda evocative of men claiming a piece of feminine identity and making it their own. It's allowing feminine-ish guys to do streetwear, and that is new and different. Total new market cornered by Hedi and it's genius.

The branding has just tied up so many threads here. It's street, yet feminine, it's hard, gothic and dark (esp TKP), yet pretty and elegant. It's powerful with millions being spent. What was the spend for TKP vs Vaccarrello's latest presentation at SLP? Not judging, and it's not really important, but the SLP presentation looks like it cost about £15,000, vs £1,000,000 for TKP. It's mind boggling how much money is being thrown into Celine. It's a mega investment for sure, and though it's meaningless in a way, this confidence and indulgence makes the brand exude power. I hope it works, but I also hope it remains niche... A logical impossibility???

Now, my concerns. I have been really disappointed to see hardly any of the TKP collection show up in London or online, when it has shown up in Asia. I feel that Asia is getting the first pick and then what's left will come to the rest of the world - note that the deerskin vest showed up online with only sizes 46 and 48 available from the first day. They are working to keep it very exclusive, that's for sure and they are fighting the seasonal 50% off sales. Only Mr Porter has it (24S too, but that's LVMH, END might have some, but only instore, not online). The concern is that TDK didn't do so well, however, I think it did. It seemed to be selling, and I'm sure it sold more than the previous homme collections which looked more like SLP.

The thing is, everyone knows that ready-to-wear doesn't make money. So the Homme side, needs to be a powerful enough product to give a halo and drive handbag sales, perfume and maybe trainers basically. If it can push trainer sales, then that's fine (but handbags are far more profitable). Personally I think the CT-01, CT-02 and CT-03 trainers are awesome, but Celine's "fashion-insider" status means show-off people don't want it (yet). But I really hope there is a place for this brand, which, if it is to remain as it is, powerful but somehow niche and insider, it'll need to sacrifice profit a bit - that might sound absurd, but to really rake in profit Celine would have to lose its exclusivity and go full Gucci and for me that would spoil the draw of what Celine is all about, so can Slimane keep LVMH satisfied by keeping Celine a bit niche?

If LVMH is happy to be a thorn in Kering's side (vis-a-vis SLP) without prioritsing profit, then fine it'll keep it going as a semi-folly (Celine doesn't need a halo menswear range to sell handbags, women already love Celine bags). Taking the perfume collection, these are super niche and luxury perfumes, they are not the usual scents pumped out by fashion houses to make fast and easy money. Runway shows and collections are aspirational marketing tools which get people to by the stack-em-high sell-em-cheap (relatviely cheap) perfumes. But Celine's range of perfumes is a complicated collection of quite challening fragrances that are expensive. Only one or two of them will appeal to young people. These are designed for perfume enthusiasts and people with niche tastes, they are not a cash cow. Basically, Celine is to the big houses (Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Balenciaga, SLP) what kind of Lamborghini was to Ferrari in the 1980s. It's amazing and expensive and a strong brand, but it's niche and nowhere near as profitable.

As for the Spring Summer 2022... Where the hell is it??? The lack of TKP stock and the absense of SS22 does have me a little concerned... I'm praying that all is going well with Celine Homme, but as I've said above, Celine Homme is a near-folly as far as an investment is concerned. But please, please, can we nurture a folly, because it's so f*cking good!! Isn't there more to life than profit??? Will LVMH keep it going? How can Celine Homme actually be generating profit?

Finally, my view is that if SS22 does emerge, it will absolutely be a contonuation of TDK and TKP, I think they will see Hedi's onto something. Everyday all I see is baggy jeans on all young people and loose 90s tees, graphics and roomy jackets. There'll be a couple of skinny jeans etc. but Hedi will not be going back to the old days. He's catering to skaters now, not indy kids who are all now in their 30s with families.

The huge outdoor ad campaigns suggests Celine is still pushing the Homme line. Womenswear does seem to be shunned though, and the investment is clearly far less.

Interested to hear people's views!

good example of thorn to side is phoebe coming back with lvmh backing. its a huge **** you to bottega.

i agree with you a lot here, hedi to me doesnt care about the super commercial in a sense, but its a necessity. the key, is to never loose your elite client. your read about the fragrance is spot on, its not chanel no5, its a demonstration of taste. best example is when thorns was posting here, the extent that he was inspired to apply these filters to **** wasnt just a spray and now your x type of beat. its a satisfaction to the savvy. his couture pursuits are another example that he’s working toward building a ******* HOUSE. his **** is veiled in references with french classics and i do think with womens that **** is syncing up. kendall in the new elle is it. it needs to be objectively desirable, but it has to be balanced in being desired (to a point, partly attainable) by everyone.

i think we see where he’s pulling from, people are dressing differently, but per the conversation earlier, some arent. the feat i hope he pulls off is he keeping us all interested.

 

[godnose]

good example of thorn to side is phoebe coming back with lvmh backing. its a huge **** you to bottega.

i agree with you a lot here, hedi to me doesnt care about the super commercial in a sense, but its a necessity. the key, is to never loose your elite client. your read about the fragrance is spot on, its not chanel no5, its a demonstration of taste. best example is when thorns was posting here, the extent that he was inspired to apply these filters to **** wasnt just a spray and now your x type of beat. its a satisfaction to the savvy. his couture pursuits are another example that he’s working toward building a ******* HOUSE. his **** is veiled in references with french classics and i do think with womens that **** is syncing up. kendall in the new elle is it. it needs to be objectively desirable, but it has to be balanced in being desired (to a point, partly attainable) by everyone.

i think we see where he’s pulling from, people are dressing differently, but per the conversation earlier, some arent. the feat i hope he pulls off is he keeping us all interested.

The biggest congrats to Phoebe Philo, but I wasn't sure how I felt about LVMH backing Philo in this way with reference to Celine. Another niggling concern is that it's LVMH's admission that Celine lost something without Philo. Could Philo's brand cannibalise Celine a little bit? The handbag market and those dedicated to old Celine could see some damage dealt perhaps? The optics just aren't perfect for Celine. But I hope the both can co-exist.

 

[pockets]

i dont think it is.

celine under phoebe was really just phoebe. she created entirely new codes with barely any reference to the celine before her. better to let her do her, fully, and get a taste of it then have her be enabled by another group.

as far as cannibalizing, the way i see it, rtw and shoes under hedi are completely different from phoebe era, the only overlap of tenure is some leather goods. the people i see buying into celine now are getting what hedi is putting out (whatever lisa or kaia are wearing). and for this forum, who knows if she’ll even do mens. the people under threat are the likes of bottega or the row, etc. shadows of what phoebe can deliver originally, also lacking in straight cult star power.

the people who just see name and dont look at the clothes, let alone buy them, yeah they might be snooty in conversation but imo they dont actually participate anyway, just talk about it.

 

[SirGrotius]

On a micro level, a SA with whom I'm close at SLP made the jump to Celine recently and said she was inspired by the new energy at Celine and the better fit with the lower Manhattan culture.

 

[kieran84]

I guess this really isn't appealing to all people! I absolutely loved this collection. I mean, none of this is by accident. The cuts are taking from another era, but there's nothing about time that makes one cut inherently better than another, it's just that the skinny thing has been done.

Walk through a few areas of east London and note, broadly:
who is in skinny stuff - older Essex boys on the main roads of Shoreditch, all gym-going, all out and lairy getting drunk trying to meet girls
who is in baggier cuts - younger, more modest types, grungier, creative, having a smoke, a drink by the canals in Haggerston, in quieter parts like London Fields and Victoria Park. I could genuinely photograph this phenomenon every weekend.

It's obvious they're looking here because there is a CELINE billboard every 50 metres.

The aesthetic is to look a bit more thrifted and modest, but then hitting with that Celine edge as well. It's being able to afford to not look fancy, but then the details, and the logo (the Essex boys won't know Celine) is the shibboleth, that's why Celine is an insider brand right now. Looking at the details, the patterns cut - the insert panels on that denim zebra jacket are pretty unusual and would have required a talented pattern cutter to make them, the zip details on those leather jackets, all extra details, that you won't actually find in high street clothing at all, because it adds a lot of cost and takes a knack to get them right. It might look down-dressed, but the key is the shibboleth. You can wear this and disappear a bit, but to those that know, you'll be recognised.

Hedi knows who he identifies with and he's executing it. For a guy in his 50s, it's remarkable how he's got his finger on it so well.

This is true. I don't fit into either of those groups though. I just wear simple nice fitting clothes. The idea that the slim style has just gone out of fashion and been replaced with baggy is wrong in my eyes though, it hasn't been fashionable for much longer than the last few years.
The emergence of the baggy look is the first alternative thing that's really gained some traction though.

Personally I feel like it's already the new basic. When you see school age kids all in baggy blue mom jeans, air force / air max, north face nuptse jackets, Nike sweatshirts, Tommy Hilfiger, pouches even though they're not drug dealers, etc it's not a look I have any interest in.

I like the middle ground.

 

[BasicJB]

I wonder if "inspired by the new energy"= poor performance of SLP menswear?

Womenswear and accessories have gotten more desirable at SLP since Vaccarello took over but I'm curious about the male customers. What are they really looking for at SLP and can they get that elsewhere (Celine...or even Amiri if they just want Hedi copy at a lower price range?)

On a micro level, a SA with whom I'm close at SLP made the jump to Celine recently and said she was inspired by the new energy at Celine and the better fit with the lower Manhattan culture.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Off topic but Amiri is absolutely terrible it's like the bastard child of SLP and Philipp Plein, who the hell buys that stuff?

 

[BasicJB]

LA social influencers who usually get that **** for free or a mix of hype beasts who liked the west-coast driven SLP aesthetics? I know it's surprising but it seems to be doing well commercially given the number of retail partners they have...

 

[Noiretblanc]

I wonder if "inspired by the new energy"= poor performance of SLP menswear?

Womenswear and accessories have gotten more desirable at SLP since Vaccarello took over but I'm curious about the male customers. What are they really looking for at SLP and can they get that elsewhere (Celine...or even Amiri if they just want Hedi copy at a lower price range?)

I think that men who want the Celine/SLP look are more attracted to Saint Laurent for a few reasons but the key factor to me is availability of merchandise to actually try on in-store. I live in Dallas and the Celine store here has yet to be remodeled to Hedi’s store plan and only has womenswear. I can’t really speak about other Celine stores too much but I was recently in Miami and they hadn’t remodeled either and they had only two very small racks of menswear, mostly unremarkable collared shirts and one oversized lambskin jacket. You would think a brand that is owned by a multi billion dollar company would have taken care of all this four years into another designer’s tenure but that’s another conversation. As far as the menswear sales in my area, my SA told me that menswear and men’s accessories sales make up more than 60% of the sales in the Dallas boutique. As a result, the women’s RTW selection is about 1/3 of the men’s selection in that boutique.

 

[Noiretblanc]

As far as Amiri is concerned, I would consider it to be the Celine/SLP aesthetic for quite large men. I’m a skinny guy and I’ve tried on Amiri pieces before, only to find they are probably better suited for someone three times my size (and that was in an extra small size). In response to the similarities between Saint Laurent SS22 and Teen Knight Poem, I don’t mind it because I really liked the ideas behind TKP but I’m never going to wear oversized anything. Now I can get the same look in a sleek silhouette from SLP that actually fits. I think it was different enough to not be a direct copy but you can definitely tell Anthony was peeking at Celine.

 

[RedVelvetWounds]

I'm really not sure about Amiri because it's so incredibly overpriced for what it is. Their jeans seem to be their most popular items but they're so expensive and I'm usually not a fan of the washes on them. I do like some Amiri footwear like the bandana boots and the 50mm chelseas, but unfortunately have also read multiple reviews complaining about the construction of them. Multiple people in the Saint Laurent thread seemed to like the Amiri flannels but I'd rather get something from SL SS16 if I'm going that route.

Even on the resale market and outlets Amiri goes for very high prices so the brand must be doing well. I just don't see it.

As far as Amiri is concerned, I would consider it to be the Celine/SLP aesthetic for quite large men.