The official CELINE thread

[SirGrotius]

I personally thought that the thread has been much more alive than in the general past, although to be fair, it seemed to pick up quite a bit after Dancing Kid with a mix of outrage and cautious approval.

I'm realizing more and more that I wish Hedi and team spent as much time photographing and styling the RTW products as they do with the excellent short videos, teasers, and Celine images that they splash across the website or instagram.

 

[Lit Harington]

And then there's that the human urge to share one's own opinion and have discussions about things they're passionate about which happens to be fashion design. Is there something wrong with that? Genuine question I don't want to be irritating or a sore to frequent members.

nothing wrong with that at all, honestly i'm always happy when this thread is active. i just thought it odd that someone so vehemently against celine in its current form would spend their time on a forum thread about it.

 

[GG Allin]

What prompted me to post my first entry is seeing people praising the build quality of some pair of jeans. As someone who works in industrial garment design, lots of garments are so technologically perfected these days that you don't need very skilled worker to produce at a high-quality standard. I really wanted to shed some light on that. And then there's that the human urge to share one's own opinion and have discussions about things they're passionate about which happens to be fashion design. Is there something wrong with that? Genuine question I don't want to be irritating or a sore to frequent members.

What do you think of the footwear, in terms of both design and quality?

Also, has no one in this thread bought or at least tried on the long coats? I feel like the overcoats and stuff we're some of Hedi's best items at SLP.

 

[Deonfate]

What do you think of the footwear, in terms of both design and quality?

Also, has no one in this thread bought or at least tried on the long coats? I feel like the overcoats and stuff we're some of Hedi's best items at SLP.

I can only judge a design as bad when it does not perform well across different morphologies, as far as aesthetics that's really subjectif but then again a design can be "objectively" aesthetically bad when it does not impose itself without a name or a brand attached to it. If it's relevant it's relevant. A good product outlives its designer.

All abstract talk aside and from personal experience, the last time I've been to a Celine store is when the FW19 has just dropped. I found the combat boots underwhelming quality wise. I think I said this on a previous entry, but HS is leaning more towards soft leathers and in some cases it's way too soft and "pretty" for the product intent. Also judging by the price and how fashion brands margin their products, it probably cost below 80 dollars to make, no respectable shoe maker would accept to produce with that price.

 

[DJR]

Phoebe's bags were actually selling like hot cakes and the brand in general was performing really well even when she left. Her departure was actually quite sudden since the mainstream has just started grasping her designs. She left the moment she was going to rip the fruits of her decade at the helm of the house. Actually the woman was so sought-after that Bernard Arnault was persuading her for two years to take over the brand and even accepted to create a satellite atelier in London for her convenience. You can say she performed as good as Hedi at SLP financially. No need to dismiss her that way since you don't like her designs. Her influence is literally everywhere, Bottega Veneta or The row wouldn't exist without her. Again which brings me to the point I made last time, the HS Celine is a stupid idea and a vanity project to revenge on his former-employer. It never was and will probably never be a couture house in the image of YSL.

100% Spot On. Confirms everything I've heard. People would be stunned by the motivations.

 

[zrn]

What cosmetic issues did you find that warranted multiple exchanges?

Questionable finishing at hems, marginal stitching on the inseam, super lazily cut threads and knots...basically finishing issues.

Does it affect the lifespan of the pants? most likely no

Will anyone ever notice? almost certainly not.

Am I being extremely picky? definitely.

But being a bit too obsessive aside, I do find it a bit absurd that these issues appear on $500-almost $1000 jeans. Definitely not a problem exclusive to Celine, just one that I've noticed has appeared in a larger than appropriate number of items I've bought.

 

[Spaceman333]

100% Spot On. Confirms everything I've heard. People would be stunned by the motivations.

spill the tea sis

 

[thorns]

No need to dismiss her that way since you don't like her designs. Her influence is literally everywhere, Bottega Veneta or The row wouldn't exist without her.

Hmmm, I detect a pot calling the kettle black irony over here. Now, I have no facts to back me up since I'm not interested in straying too far from Hedi, but in my gut feeling his bourgeois look for Celine has been inspiring other brands to mimic it. If that's your barometer for influence, then Hedi similarly has it. I'm surprised you're dismissing Hedi's work by focusing on the design since you realize how silly it is to do so to Phoebe. I would have double downed more on quality since I 100% agree that I would be upset with weird stitching as well.

If you seriously believe he's remaking the L17 or the teddy jacket because he wants to perfect them not because he wants to re-claim the part of the market he catered to at SLP, then you really need to re-evaluate your standard of good design and your assumptions about the working of the fashion industry. There's nothing to perfect, they're just pale over-priced imitations former shells of 20th american sportswear.

Perhaps you liked the American sportswear design for Saint Laurent since Hedi was fully tapping into a lot of American styles. You might find it weird to feature American sportswear for a more French brand like Celine. I think it is okay since there was a lot of style influence back in the day and people in Europe were inspired by American designs as well. I remember reading how they liked prep and put their own spin to it in Europe. Now here is how I interpret the "Hedi is perfecting his design" idea he said himself in an interview. Hedi is constantly chasing after a ghost and reinterpreting 20th century sportswear items in a way that feels relevant. This doesn't necessarily mean to me that the newer interpretations are inherently better than his previous iterations in my eyes. I'm a firm believer of his 2013 designs. However, I feel like I'm in the minority as people who are more "fashion forward" see those designs as 7 years too old now. It is almost a decade, and I suspect in fashion world terms it is a life time ago. A brand coming up with the black and white fw13 teddy now, despite my preference for the style, is 100% out of style.

I'm not saying he needs to start being avant-garde, he just needs to starts actually designing and create something modern. And this stands for any designer working right now, the standards are at all time low and people are no long critical enough. If anything people are actually finding excuses for laziness and bad quality, and they're right here in this forum.

I am curious if you have any examples of some designers who are modern yet not avant-garde. I don't know too much about what drives the market, but I suspect that the fashion industry is making more money that it did two decades ago by "watering down" their designs since the market wants that more. The majority of luxury consumers just want clothes that are stylish without being too out there. They also want it to be branded so they can show people they're in-the-know and successful enough to be able to afford it. I am curious about your take on spotlighting eboys, and whether you think it is as legitimate as Hedi spotlighting punks/goths.

You have way too much assumptions about me lol I actually championed Hedi's SLP.

For the life of me I can't understand why you would suddenly switch stances on Hedi's design philosophy just because Hedi is at another fashion house. The issues that you have towards Hedi at Celine should also have been present at Saint Laurent, since he was doing the exact same thing there. Why is what he did at Saint Laurent okay? Is it only because it performed well on sales? That is just a reflection of the Just World fallacy where people judge the morality of an action purely based on the outcome of the situation. If the outcome was good then the action was morally right. If the outcome was bad then the action was morally wrong. This is seen a lot in instances of victim blaming. The way you're so fixated in your head to use SL"P" suggest to me that you are more of a follower of authority than someone with critical thought. In the early days it was heavily used by people online who didn't understand the logo. I do acknowledge that humans like the idea of 3s, so maybe you just irrationally want 3 letters in the abbreviation to feel better psychologically. You should have transitioned to SL by now if you realized how idiotic the journalists were when they were confused about the Paris.

I can only judge a design as bad when it does not perform well across different morphologies, as far as aesthetics that's really subjectif but then again a design can be "objectively" aesthetically bad when it does not impose itself without a name or a brand attached to it.

I feel like no design will perform well across different body shapes. Even one particular handbag doeesn't look good on every body shape. Then you have to consider skin tone and hair colour matching with the colour of the item. To be honest, I suspect I have more things that I agree with you than disagree with you. I also agree that a design is attractive to me when it doesn't need overt branding to speak to my sensibilities. I would prefer to avoid people even knowing I'm wearing designer anything. A funny example was when I was wearing a pair of Sl01Hs and a girl was asking what brand it was. I tried to brush it off as just something I bought off the internet, but she was crazy enough to check the soles of my sneakers.

What prompted me to post my first entry is seeing people praising the build quality of some pair of jeans. As someone who works in industrial garment design, lots of garments are so technologically perfected these days that you don't need very skilled worker to produce at a high-quality standard.

I've heard through the grapevine how exacting Hedi is on fabrics he sources, particularly denim and leather. Initially I hated how he gave the ss19 perfecto jacket a washed effect as I was so used to the buttery smooth look of the L01s or L17. It wasn't until I saw someone trying to style their L17 similarly to the Celine tie+leather jacket look did I understand how big of an effect the washed leather had on creating a more louche impression.

vs

The Saint Laurent jacket, not being washed and being thicker, gives a more rigid/anal/exacting feeling than the louche relaxed devil may care vibe of the ss19 leather jacket. I'm not saying one look is objectively superior over the other, I'm just saying how large of an impact the treatment given to the leather jacket is in impacting a look. I am disappointed that wearing ties with leather jackets didn't catch on as easily. It would've have been the ideal candidate for being part of the Celine "uniform".

What prompted me to post my first entry is seeing people praising the build quality of some pair of jeans.

I think what separates this thread from being a circle jerk is that there is no rule against criticizing Hedi here and there is anonymity. What's fun about discussions is that there is a back and forth. If everyone just agrees with the same thing then there would be no point in posting about it in the first place since it brings nothing new to the table. Also, for another selfish reason of mine, if you didn't post your thoughts I would have had no real opportunity to post some of my own musings unprompted. Regarding criticisms, since Celine staff read this forum, the more pressure Hedi feels, the higher the chance that it could lead to better products for the customers. So many people blindly worshipped the Wyatts they didn't even care when it got reworked. It was cheaper to produce, yet they charged more for it, because of the huge circle jerk for it.

 

[thorns]

What do you think of the footwear, in terms of both design and quality?

Also, has no one in this thread bought or at least tried on the long coats? I feel like the overcoats and stuff we're some of Hedi's best items at SLP.

I feel like Camargue Biker boot has potential to be a hyped boot. The dangling chain looks a lot more fresh than the harness on the harness Wyatts. The harness being detachable you also get 2 styles in 1. The slightly pointed can also feel more fresh than the chiselled toe of the Wyatts, and it will look better with flares than Wyatts in my mind.

Examples of Camargue Biker worn

vs harness Wyatts

I feel like the harness Wyatts look more conservative and boring. Been there done that kind of thing. That said I am still ride or die with my pairs. Because I'm so used to looking at the Wyatts, the Camargues comparatively do feel fresher and more modern to my eyes.

Here is a picture of the harness being attached onto Berlins.

Although the model is wearing Berlins here, I feel like you can easily sub in the Camargues Biker boot, or strap on the harness, to add more edge. The pointier toe just looks great with flares in my eyes. The higher heel gets balanced by the cutting of the pants.

The increased heel height that Hedi is pursuing at Celine can be intimating for some, but not enough for others. I'm more comfortable at maxing out at 40 mm, personally, with skinny/slim pants. I think for many people who are more fashion forward than I am, the 40 mm height is old news now. The pair on the left is 40 mm and the Carmague Bikers at 50 mm. Puts in wider cuts also helps balance out higher heels and not make it stick out as a sore thumb as much. My personal bias is that skinny jeans will look better on a 40 mm heel and under, and flares would look better on higher heels. However, I can imagine rocking skinny jeans with higher heels, like fw15, just to emphasize the fact that they're wearing heels.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Also, has no one in this thread bought or at least tried on the long coats?

Yeah, I'm in the process of getting a more casual overcoat. I've been looking at what Loewe has on offer, and this:

 

[GG Allin]

thorns has the best pictures.

The increased heel height that Hedi is pursuing at Celine can be intimating for some, but not enough for others. I'm more comfortable at maxing out at 40 mm, personally, with skinny/slim pants. I think for many people who are more fashion forward than I am, the 40 mm height is old news now. The pair on the left is 40 mm and the Carmague Bikers at 50 mm. Puts in wider cuts also helps balance out higher heels and not make it stick out as a sore thumb as much. My personal bias is that skinny jeans will look better on a 40 mm heel and under, and flares would look better on higher heels. However, I can imagine rocking skinny jeans with higher heels, like fw15, just to emphasize the fact that they're wearing heels.

Funny you mention the Camargue bikers, I've kinda been looking at a pair. Do you know if I take the same size as my Jacno boot? I can't tell if the last is narrower or not.

I actually totally agree with you that the higher heel looks better with flares than with tapered denim. I kinda think that with the latter it can look like you're on stilts, which if you're incredibly slim can be even more pronounced.

Yeah, I'm in the process of getting a more casual overcoat. I've been looking at what Loewe has on offer, and this:

That coat looks great. I actually like the belted one for Celine as well. And...I agree that this season's Loewe's are intriguing as well.

How does one pronounce "Loewe" by the way?

 

[youwhat]

is that 'casual' ?

 

[Deonfate]

I feel like Camargue Biker boot has potential to be a hyped boot. The dangling chain looks a lot more fresh than the harness on the harness Wyatts. The harness being detachable you also get 2 styles in 1. The slightly pointed can also feel more fresh than the chiselled toe of the Wyatts, and it will look better with flares than Wyatts in my mind.
View attachment 1483381
Examples of Camargue Biker worn
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vs harness Wyatts
View attachment 1483388
I feel like the harness Wyatts look more conservative and boring. Been there done that kind of thing. That said I am still ride or die with my pairs. Because I'm so used to looking at the Wyatts, the Camargues comparatively do feel fresher and more modern to my eyes.

Here is a picture of the harness being attached onto Berlins.
View attachment 1483386

Although the model is wearing Berlins here, I feel like you can easily sub in the Camargues Biker boot, or strap on the harness, to add more edge. The pointier toe just looks great with flares in my eyes. The higher heel gets balanced by the cutting of the pants.
View attachment 1483396

The increased heel height that Hedi is pursuing at Celine can be intimating for some, but not enough for others. I'm more comfortable at maxing out at 40 mm, personally, with skinny/slim pants. I think for many people who are more fashion forward than I am, the 40 mm height is old news now. The pair on the left is 40 mm and the Carmague Bikers at 50 mm. Puts in wider cuts also helps balance out higher heels and not make it stick out as a sore thumb as much. My personal bias is that skinny jeans will look better on a 40 mm heel and under, and flares would look better on higher heels. However, I can imagine rocking skinny jeans with higher heels, like fw15, just to emphasize the fact that they're wearing heels.
View attachment 1483392

Mr thorns it is really not a good look to put words in my mouth and just assume things about other people because they used an abbreviation instead of the full name. You're over-analyzing way too much here. SLP was successful to me because it was a right fit. It came at the right time and made the house relevant again. The project made sense. HS bringing up 60s and 70s styles to the modern day was actually mirroring how Yves brought back style from pre-WWII in the 1972 with La Collection Scandale. He transposed Yves's Marrakesh exoticism with LA's vibrant rock scene. Whether you like the man and his designs or not, it is quite admirable to look back at that whole era and how well thought-out and dedicated he was.

However, the same can't be said about Celine. He's just creating the same thing under a different name to compete with his past employer, at the expense of something more relevant at the moment. It's egotistical and very unnecessary. I previously said maybe deep down I was rooting for him and wished that he would stop playing the fashion villain. In his own "words" he is his own worst enemy (the SS20 printed t-shirts).

And then from someone behind the scenes, it is a serious more general problem how fashion brands margin their products. They're basically duping their clients into very very over-priced products. This is especially staggering in HS's case. Now even if I express my appreciation and respect for the Saint Laurent project, his habit of creating carbon-copies of vintage pieces still bugged me especially when you're charging that much for them. There's basically no-design on a product level, that's not a healthy or a good example to follow. It simply won't sustain you as a designer. Here are some examples :

This is a vintage Wilsons. Here's the SLP carbon-copy from FW15 :

Even at Celine this kind of behavior continues. Here's a vintage Hein Gericke :

This is the Celine carbon-copy from FW19:

And countless other examples of this kind of "design" practise from HS. I can no longer justify a fashion purchase seeing this kind practice. The staggering absence of design and quality is simply unacceptable. Now if you want to persist to call this genius design that's on you. But in 2020 I don't see the genius of someone copying his own past work that it is essentially another bad copy from vintage styles. We should be all more educated and elevate our standards a little bit, trust everyone would benefit from it.

 

[kieran84]

Hedi has always done that. The classic black and ivory Saint Laurent Teddy is an exact copy of a vintage one he photographed someone in for his diary. It doesn't put me off whatsoever because Hedi's versions are nicer and fit better. I wouldn't be seen dead in those vintage items but I'd maybe wear the Hedi interpretations.

Please post some examples of design that you like for us to critique. Put yourself on the line a little instead of just criticising our choices but offering nothing as an alternative

 

[Nyarlathotep]

is that 'casual' ?

For me, yes, a lot more casual than a Crombie or the few other classic/old man/wear with a suit plz coats.