The official CELINE thread

[thorns]

honestly stupid of me but wasn’t sure if that was normal or what it was

I respect your more carefree attitude towards footwear. Sometimes I feel that I am too anal about details when they're just boots.

 

[Furq]

I respect your more carefree attitude towards footwear. Sometimes I feel that I am too anal about details when they're just boots.

in the end they are just boots and it’s not the end of the world regardless of the ultimate outcome

in truth I initially suspected they were a store model or something and it was just how they’d eventually wear, but now that it comes to talk of the leather itself being second quality that’s more worrisome and something that honestly I shouldn’t have to troubleshoot as a customer. Granted there are more expensive companies and we ultimately are paying for a name and design over quality itself but most stores wouldn’t have this issue to begin with

 

[thorns]

Its still ultimately Celine's responsibility to do a final check of the items they're selling and to pick their factories wisely.

Can you imagine the worker who thought it was fine when making that pair with belly leather? Can you imagine the person in the factory doing the QC and packaging the boots into the box thinking it was acceptable? Can you imagine the online team not being trained enough to spot this manufacture issue? All these issues could be easily prevented without additional manpower needed to be added.

I can imagine SAs/customers do the "final check" in boutiques indirectly through the whole trying on in store process. Luxury brands usually earn the trust of customers, so many customers don't scrutinize their items before purchasing. Seems like Celine hasn't quite earned that full trust yet...and realistically I feel like it is good practice to always scrutinize the products anyways.

Ultimately everyone is human and people make mistakes. It is how they respond to mistakes that really define them more than the actual mistake. How the online team is dealing with it is actually way worse than the factory workers slacking.

 

[Deonfate]

Seeing those last entries in the forum was really.. An experience. Are you guys seriously talking yourself into printed sweatshirt hoodies and pants? I remember the old days when Hedi stans were shaming every other designer for buying into the logo trend and sending "baggy" looks instead of well cut pieces.

Celine flopping was due to a series of bad decisions and just plain bad design. The bags are nothing new or interesting or good quality for the price. I'm surprised people were only complaining about the boots, the real catastrophe are the bags. I guess the female clientele is not that vocal or care much about quality. The ready to wear offers little novelty and quality. I get it that the Slimane army somehow rationalized redundancy and plain repetition into actual design ingenuity but the real world doesn't work that way. Besides the classics, the clothes just don't work on the average person. SS20 flares for example look really bad on average morphologies (shorter stockier legs). The Dylan jeans could've been good but they were cut really short.

This is my personal theory, contemporary HS aesthetic lack a lot of sex appeal to be truly mainstream. I really don't think the average man wants to rock a bob cut and have a thigh gap, and I don't think the average woman wants to look like the celine woman girl. His work used to have that element of rocker sex appeal and it vanished gradually till it no longer exists with Celine. And for someone who so into "youth" culture, HS seems to be completely out of touch with them. I always found how fashion designers cannibalize on alternative mouvements and declining their work into over-price products to be really evil and insincere. No true young creatives, especially from contemporary rock scene, can afford or cares about Celine and SLP. This is one major flaw in Slimane's Gesamtkunstwerk.

Also HS thought he would intimidate and call out Saint Laurent for surviving on his designs. But the big heads are really smart and flipped the cards, not only they continued to rip him off but they started taking cues and pieces from his newer work. I mean if that's not smart business I don't know what is.

This might be a little late of response to previous entries, but when I was talking about people being underwhelmed by SLP SS13 I was not referring to journalists. If you were following fashion in that period you knew that it was nothing new. You don't need to be a journalist to know that Balmain were selling skinny rocker girl aesthetic. No need to side me with those "journalists", I never said anything about changing YSL to SLP.

 

[SirGrotius]

Curious, if Celine really is a flop, is there a precedent for a brand resurrecting itself under the same designer? Does HS have a chance to infuse new life and sales into Celine, even during a pandemic?

On the QC issue, I have had one jacket where a button would not snap shut, but otherwise, I have not noticed a different level of quality or better or worse than SLP, except, Celine packaging and presentation feels more upscale.

 

[GG Allin]

Are you guys seriously talking yourself into printed sweatshirt hoodies and pants?

**** no

 

[GG Allin]

Curious, if Celine really is a flop, is there a precedent for a brand resurrecting itself under the same designer? Does HS have a chance to infuse new life and sales into Celine, even during a pandemic?

I guess that's what dancing kid was supposed to be.

 

[Randeep]

...

Anyway, yea QC across the board is mediocre. I have a good number of jeans and each one has had to be exchanged multiple times with the online shop to get a pair I found acceptable. It was all cosmetic issues no one would probably ever notice but it's still irritating.

What cosmetic issues did you find that warranted multiple exchanges?

 

[thorns]

Seeing those last entries in the forum was really.. An experience. Are you guys seriously talking yourself into printed sweatshirt hoodies and pants? I remember the old days when Hedi stans were shaming every other designer for buying into the logo trend and sending "baggy" looks instead of well cut pieces.

There is a difference between respecting what Hedi is doing, and actually participating in it. I respect the 85 mm heels and ***** bow shirts, but I'm definitely not participating in it. To shame is to be too narrow minded. Someone shaming men for wearing 85 mm heels and purses is just as ignorant as someone shaming men wearing logo hoodies and pants. I know some people feel upset that ss21 doesn't resonate with them anymore, as if they expected themselves to participate in ss21, so they feel betrayed. They feel like Hedi "caved in" and "abandoned" his own integrity...however that is when you don't understand the bigger picture of what Hedi's formula is. He has always been taking subcultures and refining them for the fashion brand. ss21 is a more polished version of clothing that resonates with the eboy subculture. Just take a look at Noen's own brand to see the inspiration is coming from people in the scene. This is no different than Hedi making leather jackets refined from the punk subculture etc. To me there is a nuance between pushing pieces that are on trend and pushing out pieces that honour and pay tribute and credits a subculture. The logo t's and hoodies in ss19 were a lot more soulless than the ss21 collection because it gave off an impression of only being created as a means to make money with no substance to it (like other brands like Gucci/Balenciaga etc). Objectively they're all logo basics, but ss21 had slightly more sincerity behind it, than just trying to create stuff that is on trend to make money, because those pieces are anchored with context and the originating culture is credited instead of a designer trying to pass it off as their own novel idea. Now whether or not you like the subculture it is being inspired by is another matter. I respect that the eboy subculture is similar to goths or punks, but that doesn't automatically mean I will participate in it. At the end of the day it is just clothes, so wear what you like and don't wear what you don't like.

Celine flopping was due to a series of bad decisions and just plain bad design. The bags are nothing new or interesting or good quality for the price. I'm surprised people were only complaining about the boots, the real catastrophe are the bags. I guess the female clientele is not that vocal or care much about quality.

Talking about bags it is ironic that Anthony is copying some of Hedi's "plain bad designs". Hedi released this bag in June of 2019.

Surprisingly, Anthony decided to release this backpack nearly 5 months later. It isn't a 1:1 copy, but the ideas present are strikingly similar.

The only thing I'm really reading from you is "I don't like it, so it is bad". You can literally replace "Celine" with "Céline" in your argument and it would be as empty and shallow. I personally think Phoebe's bags were ugly, gaudy, or plain weird. I empathize with Philophiles if they find Hedi's designs boring by comparison. They'll have to go to another brand to find such ugly designs from now on. I doubt LVMH expected them to stay loyal to Celine. If I'm guessing right, they were expecting Hedi's star power to be able to pull away all the Saint Laurent customers over to Celine. They miscalculated how many people worship the Cassandre logo over the actual designer who was behind the collections.

The ready to wear offers little novelty and quality. I get it that the Slimane army somehow rationalized redundancy and plain repetition into actual design ingenuity but the real world doesn't work that way.

Another case of "I don't like it so it is wrong" mentality. There is nothing wrong with novelty for novelty's sake. Tons of fashion brands push wacky experimental designs season after season. But that doesn't mean that's the only way fashion should be. The real world is a large group of individuals. Some "fashionistas" want novelty. Some brandwhores want blatant logos. Some others just want nice classical designs done well. Now if your argument is that Hedi is missing out on a sector of customers, I can see how you may still be level headed. This statement is undeniably true. However, the bulk of customers who afford luxury fashion don't want to look experimental and weird. People like you are part of a vocal minority. If you had enough buying power, your voice will then be heard because there is, at the end of the day, obligations for a creative director of a luxury brand like Celine to make sales. Praising creative directors and giving them awards are not enough at the end of the day. Raf got accolades for his Calvin Klein collections and look what ultimately happened. Tons of men praise Phoebe's Céline, but not many of them actually financially supported her art. So I think you should really re-evaluate what the real world actually is.

Besides the classics, the clothes just don't work on the average person. SS20 flares for example look really bad on average morphologies (shorter stockier legs). The Dylan jeans could've been good but they were cut really short.

To be honest, that is just people being delusional and wanting to hop on the latest trends instead of dressing to their body type. Hem your jeans if you need to instead of worrying about resell, and let's be real not everything will fit 100% perfect when it is off-the-rack. Buy wider jeans that better complement your legs. Hedi's pants offerings at Celine are cut wider than his pants at Saint Laurent.

This is my personal theory, contemporary HS aesthetic lack a lot of sex appeal to be truly mainstream. I really don't think the average man wants to rock a bob cut and have a thigh gap, and I don't think the average woman wants to look like the celine woman girl. His work used to have that element of rocker sex appeal and it vanished gradually till it no longer exists with Celine.

I agree that his campaigns doesn't feature as much raunchy sex as Anthony's does. I actually prefer Hedi's campaigns more because it keeps a certain class to it. Anthony's overly sexual campaigns feel tacky and gauche by comparison. I do agree that Hedi has really pushed androgyny hard at Celine, and many of his Saint Laurent fans will feel it is too soft, and get turned off from the entire brand, ignoring the fact that they can style the clothing however they personally want. I feel like Hedi is being progressive even if I don't really have a horse in that race. I do think we should clarify what mainstream really encapsulates. Mainstream encapsulates those who are interested in luxury brands. Now this "mainstream" is actually a smaller segment of our society as a whole of people into fashion. The "mainstream" are already into fashion and have already been indoctrinated that slim = good. So the average "mainstream" man might not resonate with a bob cut necessarily, but being slim is most likely ideal to them. The average "mainstream" woman will want to dress their age, if they're in their 20s, or dress younger than their age, if they're older. The "mainstream" audience fetishizes youth. Young = sexy.

And for someone who so into "youth" culture, HS seems to be completely out of touch with them. I always found how fashion designers cannibalize on alternative mouvements and declining their work into over-price products to be really evil and insincere.

Sadly this is where reality is going to sting a bit. Hedi's work was never intended for the youths. Despite being the higher quality version, the youth aren't the ones who can buy it. Hedi was designing for youths, just not youths who don't have the means to afford it. I don't think Hedi is cannibalizing and killing off young creatives. Those who are buying Noen's items are not those who can afford Hedi's items. If anything, Hedi is elevating their subculture by recognizing it and showcasing it to the world. Now you could argue that it is cringey to have someone dress up in an elevated version of a subculture's style, without any interest in the subculture that inspired it, while trying to pass themselves off as someone in that subculture. To me, that's the consumers choice and Hedi has no say in that. You could easily treat pieces as separates and wear it without necessarily committing to a subculture.

No true young creatives, especially from contemporary rock scene, can afford or cares about Celine and SLP. This is one major flaw in Slimane's Gesamtkunstwerk.

I don't think you're fully grasping what Gesamtkunstwerk really means. To simplify it, it really just means that every part of the project is meticulously designed to all fit together. This is a reference to store concept, brand logo, clothing, hangers, shoes, accessories, fragrance, campaigns, etc., all being consistent with each other. Unified brand vision and universe where everything fits. You could argue that the vision incorporates the idea of who the audience is being targetted, but I don't really think that's the case. There is no inconsistency in the vision between having a teenager, living the subculture life, saving up his money to pick up a pair of sneakers from the brand compared to an older consumer, detached from the subculture, casually walking in and out with $10k worth of items. The audience is just anyone who can afford it. Hedi isn't designing for some super secret club.

Also HS thought he would intimidate and call out Saint Laurent for surviving on his designs. But the big heads are really smart and flipped the cards, not only they continued to rip him off but they started taking cues and pieces from his newer work. I mean if that's not smart business I don't know what is.

I have to agree from a business stand point, Kering knows exactly what they're doing. The modern luxury consumer is less concerned with originality and more concerned with what brand the item is from. I think Hedi has to owe a part of his success at Saint Laurent to this very fact as well. In an alternate universe, if he pushed out the same Saint Laurent designs at his own label I doubt it would have gotten any serious traction. I think Hedi was pretty brave to take on rebuilding Celine. If he succeeds he would have done something similar to swimming upstream against a current.

This might be a little late of response to previous entries, but when I was talking about people being underwhelmed by SLP SS13 I was not referring to journalists. If you were following fashion in that period you knew that it was nothing new. You don't need to be a journalist to know that Balmain were selling skinny rocker girl aesthetic. No need to side me with those "journalists", I never said anything about changing YSL to SLP.

I will continue siding you with those journalists until proven that you actually have your own point of view that contradicts them. I have seen no proof that implies you knew the journalists were spouting bullshit or acknowledged that they were spouting bullshit. Perhaps if you chastised them, I will change my mind on this point. The only thing I know is you are enough of a fan of Hedi to be motivated to take your time to watch a YouTube video from Loic Prigent on the Celine ss20 men's show, so I respect that.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Thorns is actually Slimane's fake account.

 

[thorns]

Hedi's styling or just product shots can sometimes be a hit or miss for me. I was initially turned off from the black and brown cafe racer, but seeing federico_hurth on Instagram style it in a more conventional manner makes the jacket look much better in my eyes. I'm definitely on the same boat of people who have been saying how styling matters.

 

[GG Allin]

Hedi's styling or just product shots can sometimes be a hit or miss for me. I was initially turned off from the black and brown cafe racer, but seeing federico_hurth on Instagram style it in a more conventional manner makes the jacket look much better in my eyes. I'm definitely on the same boat of people who have been saying how styling matters.

View attachment 1482757
View attachment 1482758
View attachment 1482759

I think it looks ok on this guy, but he probably looks good in a lot of stuff. And, at that price point, you just have so many better options in my opinion.

 

[Deonfate]

There is a difference between respecting what Hedi is doing, and actually participating in it. I respect the 85 mm heels and ***** bow shirts, but I'm definitely not participating in it. To shame is to be too narrow minded. Someone shaming men for wearing 85 mm heels and purses is just as ignorant as someone shaming men wearing logo hoodies and pants. I know some people feel upset that ss21 doesn't resonate with them anymore, as if they expected themselves to participate in ss21, so they feel betrayed. They feel like Hedi "caved in" and "abandoned" his own integrity...however that is when you don't understand the bigger picture of what Hedi's formula is. He has always been taking subcultures and refining them for the fashion brand. ss21 is a more polished version of clothing that resonates with the eboy subculture. Just take a look at Noen's own brand to see the inspiration is coming from people in the scene. This is no different than Hedi making leather jackets refined from the punk subculture etc. To me there is a nuance between pushing pieces that are on trend and pushing out pieces that honour and pay tribute and credits a subculture. The logo t's and hoodies in ss19 were a lot more soulless than the ss21 collection because it gave off an impression of only being created as a means to make money with no substance to it (like other brands like Gucci/Balenciaga etc). Objectively they're all logo basics, but ss21 had slightly more sincerity behind it, than just trying to create stuff that is on trend to make money, because those pieces are anchored with context and the originating culture is credited instead of a designer trying to pass it off as their own novel idea. Now whether or not you like the subculture it is being inspired by is another matter. I respect that the eboy subculture is similar to goths or punks, but that doesn't automatically mean I will participate in it. At the end of the day it is just clothes, so wear what you like and don't wear what you don't like.


Talking about bags it is ironic that Anthony is copying some of Hedi's "plain bad designs". Hedi released this bag in June of 2019.
View attachment 1482496
Surprisingly, Anthony decided to release this backpack nearly 5 months later. It isn't a 1:1 copy, but the ideas present are strikingly similar.
View attachment 1482502

The only thing I'm really reading from you is "I don't like it, so it is bad". You can literally replace "Celine" with "Céline" in your argument and it would be as empty and shallow. I personally think Phoebe's bags were ugly, gaudy, or plain weird. I empathize with Philophiles if they find Hedi's designs boring by comparison. They'll have to go to another brand to find such ugly designs from now on. I doubt LVMH expected them to stay loyal to Celine. If I'm guessing right, they were expecting Hedi's star power to be able to pull away all the Saint Laurent customers over to Celine. They miscalculated how many people worship the Cassandre logo over the actual designer who was behind the collections.


Another case of "I don't like it so it is wrong" mentality. There is nothing wrong with novelty for novelty's sake. Tons of fashion brands push wacky experimental designs season after season. But that doesn't mean that's the only way fashion should be. The real world is a large group of individuals. Some "fashionistas" want novelty. Some brandwhores want blatant logos. Some others just want nice classical designs done well. Now if your argument is that Hedi is missing out on a sector of customers, I can see how you may still be level headed. This statement is undeniably true. However, the bulk of customers who afford luxury fashion don't want to look experimental and weird. People like you are part of a vocal minority. If you had enough buying power, your voice will then be heard because there is, at the end of the day, obligations for a creative director of a luxury brand like Celine to make sales. Praising creative directors and giving them awards are not enough at the end of the day. Raf got accolades for his Calvin Klein collections and look what ultimately happened. Tons of men praise Phoebe's Céline, but not many of them actually financially supported her art. So I think you should really re-evaluate what the real world actually is.


To be honest, that is just people being delusional and wanting to hop on the latest trends instead of dressing to their body type. Hem your jeans if you need to instead of worrying about resell, and let's be real not everything will fit 100% perfect when it is off-the-rack. Buy wider jeans that better complement your legs. Hedi's pants offerings at Celine are cut wider than his pants at Saint Laurent.


I agree that his campaigns doesn't feature as much raunchy sex as Anthony's does. I actually prefer Hedi's campaigns more because it keeps a certain class to it. Anthony's overly sexual campaigns feel tacky and gauche by comparison. I do agree that Hedi has really pushed androgyny hard at Celine, and many of his Saint Laurent fans will feel it is too soft, and get turned off from the entire brand, ignoring the fact that they can style the clothing however they personally want. I feel like Hedi is being progressive even if I don't really have a horse in that race. I do think we should clarify what mainstream really encapsulates. Mainstream encapsulates those who are interested in luxury brands. Now this "mainstream" is actually a smaller segment of our society as a whole of people into fashion. The "mainstream" are already into fashion and have already been indoctrinated that slim = good. So the average "mainstream" man might not resonate with a bob cut necessarily, but being slim is most likely ideal to them. The average "mainstream" woman will want to dress their age, if they're in their 20s, or dress younger than their age, if they're older. The "mainstream" audience fetishizes youth. Young = sexy.


Sadly this is where reality is going to sting a bit. Hedi's work was never intended for the youths. Despite being the higher quality version, the youth aren't the ones who can buy it. Hedi was designing for youths, just not youths who don't have the means to afford it. I don't think Hedi is cannibalizing and killing off young creatives. Those who are buying Noen's items are not those who can afford Hedi's items. If anything, Hedi is elevating their subculture by recognizing it and showcasing it to the world. Now you could argue that it is cringey to have someone dress up in an elevated version of a subculture's style, without any interest in the subculture that inspired it, while trying to pass themselves off as someone in that subculture. To me, that's the consumers choice and Hedi has no say in that. You could easily treat pieces as separates and wear it without necessarily committing to a subculture.


I don't think you're fully grasping what Gesamtkunstwerk really means. To simplify it, it really just means that every part of the project is meticulously designed to all fit together. This is a reference to store concept, brand logo, clothing, hangers, shoes, accessories, fragrance, campaigns, etc., all being consistent with each other. Unified brand vision and universe where everything fits. You could argue that the vision incorporates the idea of who the audience is being targetted, but I don't really think that's the case. There is no inconsistency in the vision between having a teenager, living the subculture life, saving up his money to pick up a pair of sneakers from the brand compared to an older consumer, detached from the subculture, casually walking in and out with $10k worth of items. The audience is just anyone who can afford it. Hedi isn't designing for some super secret club.


I have to agree from a business stand point, Kering knows exactly what they're doing. The modern luxury consumer is less concerned with originality and more concerned with what brand the item is from. I think Hedi has to owe a part of his success at Saint Laurent to this very fact as well. In an alternate universe, if he pushed out the same Saint Laurent designs at his own label I doubt it would have gotten any serious traction. I think Hedi was pretty brave to take on rebuilding Celine. If he succeeds he would have done something similar to swimming upstream against a current.


I will continue siding you with those journalists until proven that you actually have your own point of view that contradicts them. I have seen no proof that implies you knew the journalists were spouting bullshit or acknowledged that they were spouting bullshit. Perhaps if you chastised them, I will change my mind on this point. The only thing I know is you are enough of a fan of Hedi to be motivated to take your time to watch a YouTube video from Loic Prigent on the Celine ss20 men's show, so I respect that.

You have way too much assumptions about me lol I actually championed Hedi's SLP. I understood that it is Yves in spirit. The way he went back to the roots and started pulling from the era before YSL was established as we know it today and was actually cool. The many subtle similarities between the two persons, their north-african roots, their androgynous leanings, their frenchness etc. makes him the perfect match for the brand. He even knew the man himself and have a close relationship with Pierre Bergé. He knew the maison inside and out and that was clearly apparent from the few first seasons even before he disclosed his plan to revive the YSL couture line etc.

I also expressed the fact that I don't really care or like Phoebe's and Anthony's fashions. I would never use them as counter-example for good design lol I don't really care about fashion's present discourse of diversity and female gaze etc. I believe fashion journalism was dead for like 15 years now. It completely failed to transition to the digital era. So I hope I made myself clear this time and stop bringing up this point.

Phoebe's bags were actually selling like hot cakes and the brand in general was performing really well even when she left. Her departure was actually quite sudden since the mainstream has just started grasping her designs. She left the moment she was going to rip the fruits of her decade at the helm of the house. Actually the woman was so sought-after that Bernard Arnault was persuading her for two years to take over the brand and even accepted to create a satellite atelier in London for her convenience. You can say she performed as good as Hedi at SLP financially. No need to dismiss her that way since you don't like her designs. Her influence is literally everywhere, Bottega Veneta or The row wouldn't exist without her. Again which brings me to the point I made last time, the HS Celine is a stupid idea and a vanity project to revenge on his former-employer. It never was and will probably never be a couture house in the image of YSL.

I think it became tiresome and redundant to bring up this point each entry. But for the love of god please stop bullshitting people and stop the "Hedi is perfecting his designs". If you seriously believe he's remaking the L17 or the teddy jacket because he wants to perfect them not because he wants to re-claim the part of the market he catered to at SLP, then you really need to re-evaluate your standard of good design and your assumptions about the working of the fashion industry. There's nothing to perfect, they're just pale over-priced imitations former shells of 20th american sportswear. I'm not saying he needs to start being avant-garde, he just needs to starts actually designing and create something modern. And this stands for any designer working right now, the standards are at all time low and people are no long critical enough. If anything people are actually finding excuses for laziness and bad quality, and they're right here in this forum.

 

[Lit Harington]

im not saying this thread is exclusively for disciples of hedi who blindly adore everything he puts out, but i do wonder why you're still here if you think celine is 'tiresome and redundant'?

 

[Deonfate]

im not saying this thread is exclusively for disciples of hedi who blindly adore everything he puts out, but i do wonder why you're still here if you think celine is 'tiresome and redundant'?

What prompted me to post my first entry is seeing people praising the build quality of some pair of jeans. As someone who works in industrial garment design, lots of garments are so technologically perfected these days that you don't need very skilled worker to produce at a high-quality standard. I really wanted to shed some light on that. And then there's that the human urge to share one's own opinion and have discussions about things they're passionate about which happens to be fashion design. Is there something wrong with that? Genuine question I don't want to be irritating or a sore to frequent members.