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The official CELINE thread

Nyarlathotep

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That coat looks great. I actually like the belted one for Celine as well. And...I agree that this season's Loewe's are intriguing as well.

How does one pronounce "Loewe" by the way?
Dunno, I pronounce it "Löwe" which is German for Lion, and also completely wrong ;D
 

Deonfate

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Hedi has always done that. The classic black and ivory Saint Laurent Teddy is an exact copy of a vintage one he photographed someone in for his diary. It doesn't put me off whatsoever because Hedi's versions are nicer and fit better. I wouldn't be seen dead in those vintage items but I'd maybe wear the Hedi interpretations.

Please post some examples of design that you like for us to critique. Put yourself on the line a little instead of just criticising our choices but offering nothing as an alternative
I never criticized anyone's choices here? I'm just having a discussion about the fashion design scene in general and one major player in it who happens to be the topic of the forum. I always try to keep the conversation civilized and not personal, even if I was personally targeted and called ignorant and uneducated I never replied or dragged the level of discussion down.

I try to keep the conversation related to the forum's topic, but if you insist to know what I like well here it is:
A good example of a designer who is so dedicated to a certain line and niche and have no interest beside perfecting their own work is Margret Howell. She's been quietly and tastefully re-working her designs since the seventies.
On the topic of washed Biker jackets, my Burberry washed calfskin one from the SS11 is one of the few designer items I kept before selling everything else and turn to vintage. It is basically indestructible, it doesn't look a day older. (I also kept a HS dior homme elongated blazer from 2006).
I also posted some examples of some Celine pieces I wished I could see more (the trench coat with tailleur construction from SS19 is absolute perfection, unfortunately it didn't not make it to the stores in that version they removed the épaulettes et the cigarette from the sleeves).
 

kieran84

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Thanks Deonfate. And apologies if I attacked you I should be more careful how I write.

The trench coat you mention is pretty much just another version of what he did at DH in SS 2006, and SLP SS 13, albeit even more classic and simple, which is what you've been critical of him for doing. Hedi has talked in interviews before about perfecting classic items. For someone concerned with design like yourself I can understand why for example a perfectly fitting 2 button notch lapel black blazer would seem like it is lacking, but yet there is no where else that even comes close in both fit, and in keeping things completely classic. For me a lack of design is a good thing because I just want nice clothes, not quirky clothes.

And thanks for giving the example. Margaret Howell I'm sure is amazing. But for me it's very fashiony, whereas I'd prefer something more normal / even mainstream if you like. It reminds me of Central Saint Martins students in the 2000s. To a normal person it's a bit derelicte, very cool I'm sure but not particularly desirable to anyone outside of fashion.
 

SirGrotius

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That Celine overcoat looks great. I'd consider it upscale (dressy?) casual, since the button details would be a bit much for a more formal environment, but the length, color, and lapel all seem proper. I'm sure the high armholes and slim waist/shoulders will give it a good look.

The vintage comparisons were interesting, but I almost went blind looking at them. I'm more on Kieran's side, where I would never wear 'em. I'm not sure what the problem is using them as inspiration, isn't that kind of the point, riffing on the past, especially making something accessible very subtly inaccessible, that's one of the tropes in this space. That said, I completely get the Margaret Howell et al designer look, but it's never been my thing. I'm more straightforward, i.e., lean toward Celine "essentials" same with Dior and SL.
 

thorns

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SLP was successful to me because it was a right fit. It came at the right time and made the house relevant again. The project made sense. HS bringing up 60s and 70s styles to the modern day was actually mirroring how Yves brought back style from pre-WWII in the 1972 with La Collection Scandale. He transposed Yves's Marrakesh exoticism with LA's vibrant rock scene. Whether you like the man and his designs or not, it is quite admirable to look back at that whole era and how well thought-out and dedicated he was.
Thanks again for bringing more context behind all of this. I really appreciate it, and I can see how even more perfect of a fit Hedi's style was at Saint Laurent. Ahhh, his work there has become even more elevated in my eyes now. I know it isn't necessarily to look into all this historical past, or that we should be comparing the present to the past instead of just judging the present based on its own merits...but that kind of history does all a certain allure to the entire Saint Laurent project. I don't mind SLP! It fixes the past mistake many people committed in a way without totally pretending it didn't happen.

However, the same can't be said about Celine. He's just creating the same thing under a different name to compete with his past employer, at the expense of something more relevant at the moment. It's egotistical and very unnecessary.
I totally agree that Hedi's design philosophy at Celine doesn't have that same historical connection. It was just a perfect fit at Saint Laurent. I doubt any other brand would've been as perfect of a fit as Saint Laurent. However, the reality is the reality. I wouldn't want Hedi to abandon his philosophy just because he can't be at Saint Laurent any more. One can say his design philosophy wasn't a perfect fit at Dior Homme either, but I think sometimes we shouldn't be so stuck up on the past. The present is most important. Also, just because one brand does something already doesn't mean another brand can't compete with it. The more competition the better for consumers at the end of the day. I felt like Hedi's monopoly on harness Wyatts allowed them to cut corners on that product. People were still buying the inferior reiterations, so it made logical sense for the bean counters to do what they did. I doubt Hedi really cared about the Wyatt post fw13. He probably emotionally moved on.

They're basically duping their clients into very very over-priced products. This is especially staggering in HS's case. Now even if I express my appreciation and respect for the Saint Laurent project, his habit of creating carbon-copies of vintage pieces still bugged me especially when you're charging that much for them. There's basically no-design on a product level, that's not a healthy or a good example to follow. It simply won't sustain you as a designer.
Wow, thanks again for posting these examples of what Hedi and his team were inspired by. I find this very fascinating, if you have more examples I wouldn't mind seeing it. Look at it as further emphasizing your point of how much Hedi is a copycat. I'm sure some people reading your posts is now doubting how original Hedi is. That said, I wouldn't necessarily say they are duping their clients. They're not lying about anything. The customers buy what they want. I don't think luxury consumers are that interested in vintage diving. I can see how the vintage is more "authentic" than a reproduction, but the fit and quality of the material is usually atrocious compared to Hedi's version. Anyone chasing "authenticity" is lying to themselves. Nobody can be someone from the past. Their very existence makes their goal of being as authentic as possible in vintage clothing a paradox. If we're being "authentic" only a certain type of person living in that area at that time period should be wearing those clothes or else it is just another form of appropriation. But this unnecessarily boxes people in. I believe everybody is authentic as they are. Even if they are a poser they are authentic to themselves. They might look stupid to others, but that's besides the point. Ironically, I think Hedi is capturing the trend started by people who vintage dive. He is just supplying this trend to people who don't want to dumpster dive. Hedi is still tweaking the design and proportions to fit the current generation. Personally, I think people who vintage dive as valid as people who buy from Hedi. I have no problems with either camp. I think there is enough space for both types of people to coexist. I feel like this will sustain a designer as long as people like that vintage diving trend. As soon as more people start abandoning trying to look like the past, none of this will change.

And countless other examples of this kind of "design" practise from HS. I can no longer justify a fashion purchase seeing this kind practice. The staggering absence of design and quality is simply unacceptable. Now if you want to persist to call this genius design that's on you. But in 2020 I don't see the genius of someone copying his own past work that it is essentially another bad copy from vintage styles. We should be all more educated and elevate our standards a little bit, trust everyone would benefit from it.
Even if I don't appreciate your point of view, I think many here appreciate your messaging. I also appreciate the examples since I find it fascinating. People just look good in Hedi's work, what can I say? Isn't the most important thing about fashion actually wearing it and looking good? I can see the value in the exercising of intellectualizing someone's work, but fashion is an applied art. You have to actually wear it. It isn't truly doing its job unless it is being worn and looks good. This is my main argument against more experimental designs.

I always try to keep the conversation civilized and not personal, even if I was personally targeted and called ignorant and uneducated I never replied or dragged the level of discussion down.
I respect your EQ, so kudos to you for not getting so triggered and tilted by me. A lot of people can learn from your restraint and professionalism.

A good example of a designer who is so dedicated to a certain line and niche and have no interest beside perfecting their own work is Margret Howell. She's been quietly and tastefully re-working her designs since the seventies.
I feel like I'm biased when I look at her work and only look at examples that are really not flattering or appealing. Would you mind listing a couple examples of what you deem actually good design?

And thanks for giving the example. Margaret Howell I'm sure is amazing. But for me it's very fashiony, whereas I'd prefer something more normal / even mainstream if you like. It reminds me of Central Saint Martins students in the 2000s. To a normal person it's a bit derelicte, very cool I'm sure but not particularly desirable to anyone outside of fashion.
Yeah, I'm with you there. It just doesn't click with me on an emotional level that Hedi's vision does.
 

thorns

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thorns has the best pictures.
I pretty much obsessively check Instagram and sift through all the trash on the #Celine hashtag daily to find any pictures worth saving, so I've amassed a collection of styles for Celine that I like. I didn't realize there was such a lack of pictures for so many people here, so I realized sharing a few may be helpful for everyone. Glad my collection could be of help for you!

Funny you mention the Camargue bikers, I've kinda been looking at a pair. Do you know if I take the same size as my Jacno boot? I can't tell if the last is narrower or not.
I'm almost 100% sure it is the same last as the Jacno, just with an added welt. Here is picture of the Camargues and Jacnos side by side.
1603563336619.png



I actually totally agree with you that the higher heel looks better with flares than with tapered denim. I kinda think that with the latter it can look like you're on stilts, which if you're incredibly slim can be even more pronounced.
Yeah I agree 100%. Some people like that stilts look, so I'm not going to hate on them...it is just not what I feel comfortable projecting. I feel like it is another move towards a more gender fluid society. Girls in heels are practically rocking that stilts look...it is 2020 so men should be able to rock that look if they wanted to.
 
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thorns

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I'm more straightforward, i.e., lean toward Celine "essentials" same with Dior and SL.
I lean into the Saint Laurent Permanent Collection and Celine Essentiels myself as well. I find it fascinating that Hedi is emphasizing the Frenchness of the brand by using French terms. Essentiels and Monochroms instead of Essentials and Monochrome.

Hedi's public street ads reminds me of Helmut Lang's ads. I don't remember if he did these ads at Saint Laurent or Dior Homme.

1603564281250.jpeg


1603564295924.jpeg


vs

1603564339333.png
 

SirGrotius

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That's an interesting comparison. Funny too since didn't someone mention that Helmut Lang is designing on the DL for Anthony @ Saint Laurent? Sadly, I haven't been able to get behind the leather styling for Celine. I'm probably stuck a bit in the past, but like those photos of the SL leather much better.
 

thorns

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I stand corrected, it is German. Interesting that this is the second reference to Germany. First the Berlin campaign for fw19. Now some of the logo pieces from ss21 called the Monochroms collection.
 

Deonfate

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For people a bit turned off by the vintage pieces, they are actually 40+ years old. The fact that they still look like that (and very unflattering photographed) is a testament to their quality and build. I doubt the Celine counterpart would look that good after the same period or it is built like this inside:
s-l1600 (2).jpg


Now I'm not insinuating they're a substitute for the newer pieces, I get exactly why you're a bit turned off. I was trying to prove my point with same examples.

For Mr thorns, Hedi seems a bit of fan J. Park (their jackets were famously worn by Michael Jackson for his music videos beat it and thriller. He also wore them casually). He picked a thing or two from their pieces like for example this shoulder chainmail detail and zipped armholes:
Michael-Jackson-1980s-J-Park-Collection-Leather-Chainmail-Zipper-Biker-Jacket-Adults-Small-Med...jpg

vs
1603570449357.png

Also this one was definitely a reference for this jacket from SS20
P0.jpg
1603570743501.png


Proportion and fit are a bit updated in same cases, but with the introduction to ease and roominess with Celine cut they're basically the same. Also Hedi is a notorious vintage wearer.

It is funny that Helmut Lang was brought to the conversation because I wanted to talk about him too. He basically introduced the re-working of vintage pieces in the most authentic fashion to ready-to-wear. For example in the nineties, Franco Moschino would do a biker jacket with crystal encrusted studs in supple soft shiny leather. HL would re-work a perfecto from the fifties down to the stitch in the most sober modern way. He fetishizes utilitarianism to the point he sent a bullet proof vest down the runway. I had a previous entry in this very forum how Hedi draws from Helmut not just the slimming of the silhouette or the advertising even the stores and the art curation are very reminiscent of Lang's. People often hail Raf simons as Lang's inheritor but Slimane is a much more loyal and dedicated student.
 

thorns

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Your knowledge is always much appreciated, Deonfate! Talking about build quality and history, I can see how vintage pieces will have more history than something produced brand new and contains more of a "soul". I can imagine someone being drawn to the history of the piece and construction methods. It reminds me a bit about people into watches who value the intricacies of the movement used rather than just only how it looks. I've always had a soft spot for Helmut Lang's work, I can see how now there is more connection with Hedi than I initially thought.

Since Michael Jackson is brought up, I actually do like this fit of him wearing slightly pointier boots which reminds me of Jacnos or Camargues.
1603572541934.png

1603572474474.png

1603572493659.png

1603572611021.png



Think what you may about him, but I think this look is quite flattering on him. This is from October 2008.
 
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