- Jun 23, 2018
- Reaction score
STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.
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I never criticized anyone's choices here? I'm just having a discussion about the fashion design scene in general and one major player in it who happens to be the topic of the forum. I always try to keep the conversation civilized and not personal, even if I was personally targeted and called ignorant and uneducated I never replied or dragged the level of discussion down.Hedi has always done that. The classic black and ivory Saint Laurent Teddy is an exact copy of a vintage one he photographed someone in for his diary. It doesn't put me off whatsoever because Hedi's versions are nicer and fit better. I wouldn't be seen dead in those vintage items but I'd maybe wear the Hedi interpretations.
Please post some examples of design that you like for us to critique. Put yourself on the line a little instead of just criticising our choices but offering nothing as an alternative
Thanks again for bringing more context behind all of this. I really appreciate it, and I can see how even more perfect of a fit Hedi's style was at Saint Laurent. Ahhh, his work there has become even more elevated in my eyes now. I know it isn't necessarily to look into all this historical past, or that we should be comparing the present to the past instead of just judging the present based on its own merits...but that kind of history does all a certain allure to the entire Saint Laurent project. I don't mind SLSL
Pwas successful to me because it was a right fit. It came at the right time and made the house relevant again. The project made sense. HS bringing up 60s and 70s styles to the modern day was actually mirroring how Yves brought back style from pre-WWII in the 1972 with La Collection Scandale. He transposed Yves's Marrakesh exoticism with LA's vibrant rock scene. Whether you like the man and his designs or not, it is quite admirable to look back at that whole era and how well thought-out and dedicated he was.
I totally agree that Hedi's design philosophy at Celine doesn't have that same historical connection. It was just a perfect fit at Saint Laurent. I doubt any other brand would've been as perfect of a fit as Saint Laurent. However, the reality is the reality. I wouldn't want Hedi to abandon his philosophy just because he can't be at Saint Laurent any more. One can say his design philosophy wasn't a perfect fit at Dior Homme either, but I think sometimes we shouldn't be so stuck up on the past. The present is most important. Also, just because one brand does something already doesn't mean another brand can't compete with it. The more competition the better for consumers at the end of the day. I felt like Hedi's monopoly on harness Wyatts allowed them to cut corners on that product. People were still buying the inferior reiterations, so it made logical sense for the bean counters to do what they did. I doubt Hedi really cared about the Wyatt post fw13. He probably emotionally moved on.However, the same can't be said about Celine. He's just creating the same thing under a different name to compete with his past employer, at the expense of something more relevant at the moment. It's egotistical and very unnecessary.
Wow, thanks again for posting these examples of what Hedi and his team were inspired by. I find this very fascinating, if you have more examples I wouldn't mind seeing it. Look at it as further emphasizing your point of how much Hedi is a copycat. I'm sure some people reading your posts is now doubting how original Hedi is. That said, I wouldn't necessarily say they are duping their clients. They're not lying about anything. The customers buy what they want. I don't think luxury consumers are that interested in vintage diving. I can see how the vintage is more "authentic" than a reproduction, but the fit and quality of the material is usually atrocious compared to Hedi's version. Anyone chasing "authenticity" is lying to themselves. Nobody can be someone from the past. Their very existence makes their goal of being as authentic as possible in vintage clothing a paradox. If we're being "authentic" only a certain type of person living in that area at that time period should be wearing those clothes or else it is just another form of appropriation. But this unnecessarily boxes people in. I believe everybody is authentic as they are. Even if they are a poser they are authentic to themselves. They might look stupid to others, but that's besides the point. Ironically, I think Hedi is capturing the trend started by people who vintage dive. He is just supplying this trend to people who don't want to dumpster dive. Hedi is still tweaking the design and proportions to fit the current generation. Personally, I think people who vintage dive as valid as people who buy from Hedi. I have no problems with either camp. I think there is enough space for both types of people to coexist. I feel like this will sustain a designer as long as people like that vintage diving trend. As soon as more people start abandoning trying to look like the past, none of this will change.They're basically duping their clients into very very over-priced products. This is especially staggering in HS's case. Now even if I express my appreciation and respect for the Saint Laurent project, his habit of creating carbon-copies of vintage pieces still bugged me especially when you're charging that much for them. There's basically no-design on a product level, that's not a healthy or a good example to follow. It simply won't sustain you as a designer.
Even if I don't appreciate your point of view, I think many here appreciate your messaging. I also appreciate the examples since I find it fascinating. People just look good in Hedi's work, what can I say? Isn't the most important thing about fashion actually wearing it and looking good? I can see the value in the exercising of intellectualizing someone's work, but fashion is an applied art. You have to actually wear it. It isn't truly doing its job unless it is being worn and looks good. This is my main argument against more experimental designs.And countless other examples of this kind of "design" practise from HS. I can no longer justify a fashion purchase seeing this kind practice. The staggering absence of design and quality is simply unacceptable. Now if you want to persist to call this genius design that's on you. But in 2020 I don't see the genius of someone copying his own past work that it is essentially another bad copy from vintage styles. We should be all more educated and elevate our standards a little bit, trust everyone would benefit from it.
I respect your EQ, so kudos to you for not getting so triggered and tilted by me. A lot of people can learn from your restraint and professionalism.I always try to keep the conversation civilized and not personal, even if I was personally targeted and called ignorant and uneducated I never replied or dragged the level of discussion down.
I feel like I'm biased when I look at her work and only look at examples that are really not flattering or appealing. Would you mind listing a couple examples of what you deem actually good design?A good example of a designer who is so dedicated to a certain line and niche and have no interest beside perfecting their own work is Margret Howell. She's been quietly and tastefully re-working her designs since the seventies.
Yeah, I'm with you there. It just doesn't click with me on an emotional level that Hedi's vision does.And thanks for giving the example. Margaret Howell I'm sure is amazing. But for me it's very fashiony, whereas I'd prefer something more normal / even mainstream if you like. It reminds me of Central Saint Martins students in the 2000s. To a normal person it's a bit derelicte, very cool I'm sure but not particularly desirable to anyone outside of fashion.
I pretty much obsessively check Instagram and sift through all the trash on the #Celine hashtag daily to find any pictures worth saving, so I've amassed a collection of styles for Celine that I like. I didn't realize there was such a lack of pictures for so many people here, so I realized sharing a few may be helpful for everyone. Glad my collection could be of help for you!thorns has the best pictures.
I'm almost 100% sure it is the same last as the Jacno, just with an added welt. Here is picture of the Camargues and Jacnos side by side.Funny you mention the Camargue bikers, I've kinda been looking at a pair. Do you know if I take the same size as my Jacno boot? I can't tell if the last is narrower or not.
Yeah I agree 100%. Some people like that stilts look, so I'm not going to hate on them...it is just not what I feel comfortable projecting. I feel like it is another move towards a more gender fluid society. Girls in heels are practically rocking that stilts look...it is 2020 so men should be able to rock that look if they wanted to.I actually totally agree with you that the higher heel looks better with flares than with tapered denim. I kinda think that with the latter it can look like you're on stilts, which if you're incredibly slim can be even more pronounced.
I lean into the Saint Laurent Permanent Collection and Celine Essentiels myself as well. I find it fascinating that Hedi is emphasizing the Frenchness of the brand by using French terms. Essentiels and Monochroms instead of Essentials and Monochrome.I'm more straightforward, i.e., lean toward Celine "essentials" same with Dior and SL.