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The official CELINE thread

Jabbathecunt

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"I understand what Helmut did, because for me clothes should not be sacré. It’s only cotton, silk, gauze… I like that idea of finishing a period like he did and destroying everything. I really respect someone who isn’t stuck in something he did amazingly. It’s better to stop at the right time than doing something less good or too repetitive."
This is an extract from Anthony Vaccarello's interview about his Helmut Lang collaboration.
I have to say I love the subtle back and forth between Hedi and Anthony dissing each other without being overly explicit about it lol. Do you agree with him on this one?
He has no argument. Like I've stated before he's still riding Hedi's wave at SLP, but every wave must crash. There is already a new generation coming up and times change. Hedi understands that and has pretty much mastered fashion cycles.
 

RedVelvetWounds

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Its mostly items geared toward the eboy generation, not just a pair of socks.
Yeah just making a joke. I checked the stuff out and while it's not something I particularly enjoy I think it's a good decision when it comes to profit. Kids love streetwear and the main way they get into brands is by seeing either someone they admire or a friend wear something with a logo on it. It's a way to fit in. Streetwear is full of logos and since a few years ago high end brands like Gucci and LV have slipped into that realm as well. I think it's a very smart move for Celine to tap into that market.
 

SirGrotius

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Yes, not my thing, but obviously, will sell those hoodies right now and the brand does need name recognition, whereas Hedi's other houses were already better established.

BTW - those pants above are gorgeous. I've tried the trousers before, and they do need to be tailored a bit more to slim the legs, but otherwise, the waist is fairly snug, so I'd go TTS. Trousers like that can be a risky buy outside of the store, unless you hit the exact height. I wouldn't want too much break, etc.
 

Deonfate

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I think this is a sentiment that many people can relate to. It takes a lot of courage to keep going after creating a best seller. Tons of people will fear that they will never reach the same success again and choose to quit while they're ahead. Not many people relate to Hedi's intensity and feverish commitment to chasing after a vision. Constantly refining something, constantly chasing perfection. To me, people who change too often feel inauthentic, but this is probably an unpopular opinion...especially in "fashion". In "fashion" people fetishize novelty over commitment. This statement is ironic coming from Anthony since he's just ripping off Hedi. He's been taking notes at what Hedi has been doing new at Celine and copying elements of it for Saint Laurent, or rehashing ss13 and trying to pass it off as something new since practically nobody remembers ss13. This betrays any sincerity in his words, and it just looks like a pathetic jab with little conviction behind his words. Kris Van Assche was truly able to re-create Dior Homme in his own vision after Hedi left. Anthony, on the other hand, is still chained to Hedi's legacy at Saint Laurent and Celine.

It is interesting that Anthony tried to tap into Helmut Lang to help design denim/workwear for the brand and got turned down. The resulting collaboration mirrors Hedi's collaboration with the Cesar Foundation. Both artists deal with transforming something old into something new through destruction and compression. The Celine Cesar Compression Project is miles more elegant and chic than the Helmut Lang collaboration, unfortunately. Also, the Helmut Lang collaboration feels something out of left field, while the Cesar Compression Project just feels right.

View attachment 1478886
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I agree pretty much on everything here. Anthony shouldn't be throwing rocks and living in a glass house. His work is very reliant on Hedi's. He seems to care a lot about his predecessor and the house's past for someone who hates nostalgic things. He has some goods ideas when it comes to womenswear but he seems less confident about them and seems to be pushing Hedi's formula more. The menswear is just horrendous in my humble opinion.

Nonetheless, his statement still holds some truth. There might be some good things about doing the same thing over and over. But in this case it's not really about the clothes and more about the spirit and presentation of the whole brand. You can slap a SLP label at any Celine piece/ad/show and it would very fitting for the brand. It is very Yves, and feels like a continuation of his past work before it was interrupted. It was really a missed opportunity to have Hedi dabble into a different sensibility other than what he established at SLP. I'm pretty sure the clothes themselves won't change much but something fresher I think nobody would complain. Plus his move to Celine seems out of place since the house isn't known for what he's offering now and his accessory line is very weak compared to phoebe's. No wonder the numbers aren't so great. He should've went to Givenchy, his dark slim silhouette is very fitting for the house and he has that french touch just like Hubert.

And I have to disagree about the Cesar compressions. They seem like the bootleg version of the original work. The Celine one looks more like chewed gum than some jewelry pieces pressed together. Which is strange, Hedi is usually very faithful to the source material.

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SirGrotius

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I wonder if LVMH's decision to place Hedi at the helm was driven more so by serendipity, i.e., Phoebe leaving at said time and Hedi being available, the desire to grow a relatively smaller house with an infusion of designer star power, and/or giving Hedi a smaller house to work from the ground up. It certainly wasn't a blank slate, and as noted above, there are some codes or bourgeois, softer? sensitbilities being built into Hedi's work at Celine. I agree that there's something to change to change as well as being consistent with your core body of work. Obviously now it's more about the seamless and connectivity between the whole brand presence, which likely has more tentacles now than the biannual fashion shows and boutiques themselves.
 

thorns

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You can slap a SLP label at any Celine piece/ad/show and it would very fitting for the brand. It is very Yves, and feels like a continuation of his past work before it was interrupted.
I'm not familiar with Yves' work, so I'm ignorant on how Hedi's Celine work relates to Yves' own work. What I know with certainty, however, is that Hedi's Celine work is significantly different enough that you can separate a Saint Laurent girl/boy and a Celine girl/boy. For the most part, the image of the Saint Laurent girl/boy is a lot tougher than the Celine boy/girl. The Celine girl/boy appears a lot more educated. It gets confusing on instagram since you can really treat many Celine pieces as separates and restyle it into Hedi's Saint Laurent style if you wanted to. But, I definitely can't see how you can slap on a Saint Laurent logo above just any Celine campaign shot. I'm just going to talk about Hedi's Saint Laurent since it isn't fair to bring up whatever direction Anthony has taken. Hedi's Saint Laurent is more American, and his Celine is more European. For those who just treats clothes as clothes, I can't fault them for thinking the pieces are interchangeable. Hell, both Peter Utz and Hedi pretty much dress the same when at Saint Laurent or at Celine. But if you really buy into the vision and world Hedi is meticulously crafting then every single detail is important. I'm a fan of both just treating the items as separates (like Peter and Hedi's personal style), or really buying into the world they're creating by committing to the season's ensemble as a set. But if we do zoom out for a second, it is hard to deny that Hedi isn't continuing his formula from Saint Laurent at Celine. However, only viewing it in a zoomed out perspective will only give you a superficial understanding void of any nuances.

It was really a missed opportunity to have Hedi dabble into a different sensibility other than what he established at SLP. I'm pretty sure the clothes themselves won't change much but something fresher I think nobody would complain.
Ss21 is definitely something fresher and wow was there a lot of complaints. It really drives home the idea that people who are a fan of Hedi's work feel like any deviation is an attack on his sincerity and authenticity. To some, Hedi's new bourgeois direction at Celine is a big turn off already for deviating from his work at Saint Laurent. To others, they feel nothing has changed from his work at Saint Laurent. If the people who want Hedi to do something drastically different were really honest with themselves, they never really connected to Hedi's design philosophy at all. They are just imposing their own interpretation of what a creative director "should do" onto Hedi forcefully without consent. It ultimately goes back to a difference of understanding of how the system really works. How creative directors move around from brand to brand. How brands hire creative directors based on their own style they have created rather than hiring a designer who matches the original founder's style the most.

Plus his move to Celine seems out of place since the house isn't known for what he's offering now and his accessory line is very weak compared to phoebe's. No wonder the numbers aren't so great. He should've went to Givenchy, his dark slim silhouette is very fitting for the house and he has that french touch just like Hubert.
This exact argument can be used for Dior Homme. Yet, it was all praise there. This logical inconsistency stems from a bias against Hedi from the fashion "authorities". Sadly, most people blindly believe what these "journalists" think and blindly parrot it. The fashion journalists, with their own agenda to push, tried to use this argument at Saint Laurent since most dilettantes wouldn't know Yves' original design philosophy. I'm not going to rehash how much of a joke they were for being upset with Hedi dropping Yves from the ready-to-wear labels. It really exposed how ignorant they were or how they were maliciously trying to push a narrative against Hedi. I'm not going to pretend to know much about handbags and what really attracts women to what design. To me, Phoebe's vision was geared towards the artsy-fartsy crowd. The designs really aren't that flattering. It felt more like a "you'll know if you know" kind of brand. Although she probably had no wish for it, her vision will never gain the elevated status, in the majority of society's eyes, and become a household name like Chanel, Dior, or Louis Vuitton. Phoebe's vision will forever have been in the shadow of Celine Dion. Hedi has been painstakingly rebranding Celine so that it can have a chance to be up there with those commercial giants.

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If I were to ever replace my Duffle 12, I could see this medium Cabas de France being a candidate. It feels like a slightly more masculine version of the 16, especially when worn with the shoulder strap.
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And I have to disagree about the Cesar compressions. They seem like the bootleg version of the original work. The Celine one looks more like chewed gum than some jewelry pieces pressed together. Which is strange, Hedi is usually very faithful to the source material.

View attachment 1479092
I'm not going to lie, it would probably have been more visually stunning if there were more different materials/textures used, or at least having gold pieces mixed with silver pieces. However, I do see how someone might like plain gold or plain silver for styling purposes. I actually like how more regular the surface of Hedi's version is. It makes it look more streamlined and less gaudy. If Hedi wanted to be truly faithful, he would have kept the original ugly chunky dimensions as well. That just won't match with Hedi's vision of Celine's jewelry. To a layperson, it really wouldn't matter, so this is just me nitpicky. I'm particularly sensitive to coherence and consistency and that's one of the things Hedi does really well.
 
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Jabbathecunt

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I agree pretty much on everything here. Anthony shouldn't be throwing rocks and living in a glass house. His work is very reliant on Hedi's. He seems to care a lot about his predecessor and the house's past for someone who hates nostalgic things. He has some goods ideas when it comes to womenswear but he seems less confident about them and seems to be pushing Hedi's formula more. The menswear is just horrendous in my humble opinion.

Nonetheless, his statement still holds some truth. There might be some good things about doing the same thing over and over. But in this case it's not really about the clothes and more about the spirit and presentation of the whole brand. You can slap a SLP label at any Celine piece/ad/show and it would very fitting for the brand. It is very Yves, and feels like a continuation of his past work before it was interrupted. It was really a missed opportunity to have Hedi dabble into a different sensibility other than what he established at SLP. I'm pretty sure the clothes themselves won't change much but something fresher I think nobody would complain. Plus his move to Celine seems out of place since the house isn't known for what he's offering now and his accessory line is very weak compared to phoebe's. No wonder the numbers aren't so great. He should've went to Givenchy, his dark slim silhouette is very fitting for the house and he has that french touch just like Hubert.

And I have to disagree about the Cesar compressions. They seem like the bootleg version of the original work. The Celine one looks more like chewed gum than some jewelry pieces pressed together. Which is strange, Hedi is usually very faithful to the source material.

View attachment 1479092
To me Hedi's seems like a more chic, refined, elegant, and minimalistic carving paying homage, that was produced in collaboration with the César foundation. Hedi would never directly copy another artists work. Could you imagine wearing the piece above for Hedi's esthetic? Also you have to remember that each original César totem was unique as they were created using the customers unwanted jewelry that had fallen out of fashion. I have viewed the Celine silver collier carving in person and the detailing is intricate right down to the hand made wooden box. It's my understanding that they have pretty much sold out and will undoubtedly be collectors pieces for many years to come, similar to his fine jewelry collection for Dior Homme.

Anthony's collaboration with Helmut seems like a insecure copy cat move to help him sleep at night, Just slaying
 
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Jabbathecunt

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You can slap a SLP label at any Celine piece/ad/show and it would very fitting for the brand. It is very Yves,
That is only because SLP is Hedi Slimane and without him SLP as it is right now wouldn't exist. Anthony is just riding the wave. You could argue that it's possibly the same spirit of Yves and I feel this is why Yves attended Hedi's shows for Dior Homme, he saw the genius. Yves started out at Dior before creating YSL couture and Saint Laurent as a Prêt-à-Porter diffusion brand. Hedi didn't change the name he restored it. IMO Hedi was hoping to return YSL to Haute couture status, and reclaim the YSL Beauté license from L'Oréal but that wasn't in Kerring's business model, and ultimately why they parted ways. Hedi also restored Celine without the accent. Hedi's formula is take a part of the past and combine it with the current to create the future. It is worth pointing out that Dior Homme or Celine Homme didn't exist before Hedi Slimane, he created both from nothing.
 
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kieran84

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Thorns that bag is very nice. Surprised the bags at Celine haven't been as much of a commercial success as the duffle 12 or the sac de jour as they're equally nice.

The men's bags haven't quite been there for me. A simple medium travel bag in black is what I want. I actually like the medium monogram travel bag, the monogram at Celine is miles better than what he did at SLP, but I'm don't feel like monogram is quite my style, especially not as my only travel bag, would be okay if I was looking to just add variety.

For regular day to day use I'm still using my black grain de poudre museum briefcases (I have both the large and regular size). With the chrome details this bag is really stunning and I actually get more compliments on this than on anything else I've ever had.
 

Jabbathecunt

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Thorns that bag is very nice. Surprised the bags at Celine haven't been as much of a commercial success as the duffle 12 or the sac de jour as they're equally nice.

The men's bags haven't quite been there for me. A simple medium travel bag in black is what I want. I actually like the medium monogram travel bag, the monogram at Celine is miles better than what he did at SLP, but I'm don't feel like monogram is quite my style, especially not as my only travel bag, would be okay if I was looking to just add variety.

For regular day to day use I'm still using my black grain de poudre museum briefcases (I have both the large and regular size). With the chrome details this bag is really stunning and I actually get more compliments on this than on anything else I've ever had.
Where are the lies? I would love to hear them
 
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thorns

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Yeah the triomphe monogram is quite nice when embossed like this. I like how the Celine briefcases have movable handles so they're not necessarily always standing up at attention, especially when using the strap.
1603012447951.png


Hedi is definitely championing androgyny even harder at Celine than at Saint Laurent. He's pushing for men to also be able to wear small leather bags (purses).

I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it.

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I think it is a smart business move to be able to also push purses onto a relatively new untapped market, and perhaps my internal resistance is just me being a dinosaur and not embracing the future.

The vertical monogramed Cabas can look nice though
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The bucket bag in triomphe canvas could maybe be quite unisex as well
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However, it is hard for me to deny that I wouldn't feel more comfortable with the biker bag backpack though
1603020618499.png
 
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Deonfate

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I'm not familiar with Yves' work, so I'm ignorant on how Hedi's Celine work relates to Yves' own work. What I know with certainty, however, is that Hedi's Celine work is significantly different enough that you can separate a Saint Laurent girl/boy and a Celine girl/boy. For the most part, the image of the Saint Laurent girl/boy is a lot tougher than the Celine boy/girl. The Celine girl/boy appears a lot more educated. It gets confusing on instagram since you can really treat many Celine pieces as separates and restyle it into Hedi's Saint Laurent style if you wanted to. But, I definitely can't see how you can slap on a Saint Laurent logo above just any Celine campaign shot. I'm just going to talk about Hedi's Saint Laurent since it isn't fair to bring up whatever direction Anthony has taken. Hedi's Saint Laurent is more American, and his Celine is more European. For those who just treats clothes as clothes, I can't fault them for thinking the pieces are interchangeable. Hell, both Peter Utz and Hedi pretty much dress the same when at Saint Laurent or at Celine. But if you really buy into the vision and world Hedi is meticulously crafting then every single detail is important. I'm a fan of both just treating the items as separates (like Peter and Hedi's personal style), or really buying into the world they're creating by committing to the season's ensemble as a set. But if we do zoom out for a second, it is hard to deny that Hedi isn't continuing his formula from Saint Laurent at Celine. However, only viewing it in a zoomed out perspective will only give you a superficial understanding void of any nuances.



Ss21 is definitely something fresher and wow was there a lot of complaints. It really drives home the idea that people who are a fan of Hedi's work feel like any deviation is an attack on his sincerity and authenticity. To some, Hedi's new bourgeois direction at Celine is a big turn off already for deviating from his work at Saint Laurent. To others, they feel nothing has changed from his work at Saint Laurent. If the people who want Hedi to do something drastically different were really honest with themselves, they never really connected to Hedi's design philosophy at all. They are just imposing their own interpretation of what a creative director "should do" onto Hedi forcefully without consent. It ultimately goes back to a difference of understanding of how the system really works. How creative directors move around from brand to brand. How brands hire creative directors based on their own style they have created rather than hiring a designer who matches the original founder's style the most.



This exact argument can be used for Dior Homme. Yet, it was all praise there. This logical inconsistency stems from a bias against Hedi from the fashion "authorities". Sadly, most people blindly believe what these "journalists" think and blindly parrot it. The fashion journalists, with their own agenda to push, tried to use this argument at Saint Laurent since most dilettantes wouldn't know Yves' original design philosophy. I'm not going to rehash how much of a joke they were for being upset with Hedi dropping Yves from the ready-to-wear labels. It really exposed how ignorant they were or how they were maliciously trying to push a narrative against Hedi. I'm not going to pretend to know much about handbags and what really attracts women to what design. To me, Phoebe's vision was geared towards the artsy-fartsy crowd. The designs really aren't that flattering. It felt more like a "you'll know if you know" kind of brand. Although she probably had no wish for it, her vision will never gain the elevated status, in the majority of society's eyes, and become a household name like Chanel, Dior, or Louis Vuitton. Phoebe's vision will forever have been in the shadow of Celine Dion. Hedi has been painstakingly rebranding Celine so that it can have a chance to be up there with those commercial giants.

View attachment 1479217
View attachment 1479218
If I were to ever replace my Duffle 12, I could see this medium Cabas de France being a candidate. It feels like a slightly more masculine version of the 16, especially when worn with the shoulder strap.



I'm not going to lie, it would probably have been more visually stunning if there were more different materials/textures used, or at least having gold pieces mixed with silver pieces. However, I do see how someone might like plain gold or plain silver for styling purposes. I actually like how more regular the surface of Hedi's version is. It makes it look more streamlined and less gaudy. If Hedi wanted to be truly faithful, he would have kept the original ugly chunky dimensions as well. That just won't match with Hedi's vision of Celine's jewelry. To a layperson, it really wouldn't matter, so this is just me nitpicky. I'm particularly sensitive to coherence and consistency and that's one of the things Hedi does really well.
Let me show why it's very Yves more than it is Celine. Even though Celine was pushing a similar look in the 70s, Yves literally invented it and brought it to the fashion consciousness and cemented in the history books with his ballet russe collection in 1976.

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You could arguably say Hedi is more saint laurent at Celine than he was at SLP itself lol even the ads format are inspired by vintage saint laurent rive gauche

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Which makes the Celine project all the more absurd and out of place. It never was a couture house or major fashion auteur with a unique style. Chloé and Celine are more like an "affordable" Hermés with a younger and more feminine touch. Michael Kors gave it a strong ready to wear look: easy minimal shapes with emphasis on comfort and materials such as cashmere and leathers in neutral tones. That was the Celine toolkit until Hedi arrived.

I feel like you're downplaying other designers in favor of Hedi. I'm not personally a fan of her work. But you can't deny that her design language and sensibilities are literally the norm in today's fashion. Celine didn't need an overhaul and especially one that makes it look like an other brand. Phoebe tapped into the modern zeitgeist that's why other brands who capitalized on her style are dominating the market right now. To scrap all that and replace it with something that is not even generating profit makes Hedi look rather clueless and out of touch.

Nobody cares about vintage Celine logo or canvas, which is a riff on the LV monogram if we're being honest here.

As Jabbathecunt mentioned, it is really unfortunate that his SLP couture restoration project got interrupted. I also believe that he quit SLP because of something regarding L'Oréal beauty license. Maybe if everything went smoothly, saint laurent would be restored as a couture house with a strong perfume and cosmetics line in the image of Chanel and Dior today. Rightfully where it belongs.
 

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