The official CELINE thread

[Deonfate]

@Deonfate /// to get back to my post, is this kind of misalignment acceptable or not ? For me no, and furthermore how can it be on the website. It's like nobody really cares.

Of course it's not acceptable. The sight of such mistakes is very disappointing at a "luxury" brand. But the price of the nylon wind breaker is just plain insulting.

 

[rire]

Guys, let me give you SS20 look #7.
Can you guess which items are Celine?
Hint: none.

 

[Deonfate]

Guys, let me give you SS20 look #7.
Can you guess which items are Celine?
Hint: none.

Honestly it's not surprising. I wouldn't expect Celine to actually have the good sense of lowering the rise of the levis 417s that the team thrifted for the season. It might look contemporary and faltering for more than one body type and that comes directly against HS ethos and authenticity.

 

[kieran84]

It's just clothes at the end of the day. Hedi's Saint Laurent and Celine clothes look good on me, far better than any other clothes from other brands, and so I buy them because to me that's worth the price. I couldn't care less about misalignment of a seam here or there, and whether the price is justified as long as the stuff looks good. I am however very critical about what I buy, but based pretty much on this factor alone.

 

[jeune]

It's just clothes at the end of the day. Hedi's Saint Laurent and Celine clothes look good on me, far better than any other clothes from other brands, and so I buy them because to me that's worth the price. I couldn't care less about misalignment of a seam here or there, and whether the price is justified as long as the stuff looks good. I am however very critical about what I buy, but based pretty much on this factor alone.

I agree with everything kieran said here.
Most of my shopping, if not all of it, only goes toward vintage and clothes designed by Hedi. They mesh so well together (as said many times because Hedi takes inspiration from these vintage pieces) and they fit my body structure perfectly compared to any other contemporary brands and designers. I felt what Hedi said about being young and not having many clothes fit him due to his physique, and look where it's brought us to now. The same as it's always been.

In terms of the "quality" of the pieces, every piece that I've personally bought I make sure to check all around the garment for any flaws in stitching, un-alignment, etc. I've never had a problem, and to me the fabrics also feel nice to the touch (maybe minus the cotton dress shirts, those crease when you just look at them). Can't deny that there will be issues like that amongst the garments though, they are being mass produced and not 1-of-10 pieces or anything.

 

[whorishconsumer]

Was actually just in the Celine store in Soho (NYC) today, and yea - really pretty not great quality-wise. But as has been commented, it's not about the quality and 100% about the branding (selling of a fantasy), imparting of status and, for some, fit. I myself fall in this last category (and maybe the one before it).

Edit: The "par" in fashion isn't that high a bar to hit where quality is concerned. Which is to say that perhaps Celine is on-par.

 

[DJR]

Check the denim jacket with the diagonal seams in SS20. The sewing is horrendous.

I mean if it isn't clear up to this point, you're not paying for quality with these fashion brands. The retail price is x10 the wholesale price which is x8 the cost of the actual garment. I really can't get behind any brand or justify any purchase since I started working in the fashion industry.

This might seem off-topic but allow me to elaborate on the last point. It might sound gullible or you might've heard it a thousand times, but fashion is all about marketing and brand perception. Most of the money goes there, not on quality control or actual product development. If anything fashion held the technological evolution of garment making. Garments are basically being made the same way we did in the last 100 years. The only engineering feats done are just to accelerate and perfect the whole process rather to innovate and produce new ways to assemble garments. Fashion basically substituted actual garment engineering with seasonal style variations of the same pieces.

Celine is a perfect example of this. HS is just re-doing vintage pieces that his team thrifted (mostly from japan). Sometimes it results in a good product, but most times it doesn't. The Celine quality is simply unacceptable with price they're charging. The materials and accessories are subpar and the construction is very average. HS lost me with this Celine reboot.

This is a great addition to this thread.

Deonfate, are there any current brands / houses where the work justifies the expense or even remotely close? I can totally understand your disillusionment. I'm trending in that direction myself. I think I can hazard a guess as to the answer; but I would like to hear your thoughts. Louis Vuitton? Dior? Saint Laurent?

Also where does Savoir Faire factor in with the Made in France pieces? I have a KVA Dior Leather Jacket from 2018 (Goatskin; Made in France) that has stitching all over the place; uneven sometimes and often a bit irregular. Studying the garment, combined with the feel and build quality - I naturally assumed this was due to an actual human being spending time with the leather under an (wishful) actual sewing machine, etc. But I'm assuming from your post above, this doesn't apply even to the "Savoir Faire" pieces?

As a follow-up, for me it seems like Hedi Slimane's best work was done at Dior in the early 2000's. It seems like this is well known in the industry too. A friend of mine has relationships with current senior Editors at Vogue, and I was told recently that several of them "literally lit up like a Christmas tree" when he brought up / discussed this era of menswear and the pieces from this HS era more than ANYTHING else since (Design wise, Quality wise, Originality).

Personally can confirm having had so many Saint Laurent (most have been let go) and seen / tried Celine (leathers feel plasticky and poor). Compared to the leathers / wools / cotton mixes from the early Dior days; which really feel a lot better that anything I've encountered in his pieces in the last 7-10 years, including Saint Laurent.

Any thoughts on all of the above? I'm always eager to learn from people who work in the industry.

 

[SirGrotius]

DJR - great point! By happenstance, I'm wearing my Dior leather, MIF, probably from a year or two before (black with a dark blue interior, very subtle). So buttery soft, but my stitching is very even, in fact, it's one of the more perfect jackets I've seen, and they even tailored the sleeves a touch.

But anyway, I'm of the mindset that these little details do matter. It could matter a lot to someone detail-oriented, bordering OCD on the spectrum, such as HD himself, most likely, who'd spot these imperfections on the dot, and also, I'm a believer of the "blink" effect, or that idea of first impressions, where we as humans have an intuitive sense of things. We process so much information and sensations subconsciously that we may not be cognizant of the loose or uneven stitching, but it may inch down the value or overall projection of the piece and image to be presented.

 

[kieran84]

As one of the posters here who shopped Dior through a lot of Hedi's time there I remember everyone complaining from about SS2005 onwards about reduced quality, and the stuff just being vintage reproductions. I started buying a lot from around 'Strip' onwards and the truth is the quality was as you'd expect from a high end label and I didn't really see a notable decline. Saint Laurent is the worst quality of the three (but still acceptable, with Celine being a notch up and old DH maybe another notch up).

As for the lack of design argument, I'd far rather have perfect versions of basics and vintage items like Hedi's work at SLP onwards (and somewhat like his work at DH from VOTC onwards I suppose), compared to ridiculous Edward scissorhands looking Napoleon jackets etc but internet loves that stuff.

 

[jeune]

As one of the posters here who shopped Dior through a lot of Hedi's time there I remember everyone complaining from about SS2005 onwards about reduced quality, and the stuff just being vintage reproductions. I started buying a lot from around 'Strip' onwards and the truth is the quality was as you'd expect from a high end label and I didn't really see a notable decline. Saint Laurent is the worst quality of the three (but still acceptable, with Celine being a notch up and old DH maybe another notch up).

As for the lack of design argument, I'd far rather have perfect versions of basics and vintage items like Hedi's work at SLP onwards (and somewhat like his work at DH from VOTC onwards I suppose), compared to ridiculous Edward scissorhands looking Napoleon jackets etc but internet loves that stuff.

Very well said.

Anyway here are some recent fit pics of trying stuff on. Regret wearing the white socks since the white sock + white shoes is definitely way too much, but anyway. Probably my favorite silk shirt of the bunch, and picking it up this weekend. Wearing a silk tank-top is also really...weird to say the least but don't think I can pick it up for ~500$. Corduroy teddy also my favorite outer piece apart from the suiting jackets, and the laced Jacnos are definitely a future pick-up.

Pants are vintage Levi's.

Spoiler

 

[SirGrotius]

jeune you're killing it, great look! I like the louche feeling.

 

[Deonfate]

I don't want to come off as too negative, or the bearer of bad news. You guys don't need to justify your purchases to anyone. My only concern is with these "luxury" fashion brands hyping up their own products. If you're happy spending your money then... Good for you.

What prompted me to join this forum and add my 2 cents is the post about the distress denim being a "higher quality". That's just plain misinformation, there's no "luxury" distressed denim. There's no advanced skill or a special machine to make them. All distressed denim go basically through the same process. In case of fashion brands, they MIGHT be in a slightly better quality material but it still doesn't justify the price.

Made in France or Made in Italy are not magic seals of quality. The truth is you can make quality garments at any part of the world with handful of skilled people at the top. Good pattern maker, garment technician and logistics. They can simplify the garment assembly or break it to very easy manageable tasks that can be done with someone with very little skill. Of course some details require better workers but I still struggle to see those anywhere those days. With that being said, European factories are still the best in the world as for right now. But I don't see it staying this way in the next few years. Other countries are quickly catching up. Europe might still have the upper hand in fabric weaving also, the best fabrics still come from Italy/France/UK. However most of these brands don't really deal with those (The fabric on the celine new wave pants with 50% polyester in them most probably come Turkey, no respectable manufacturer sells "quality" 50% polyester wools). I don't think fashion brands still have the same standards as they used to, or they even care about that. No steps are being taken in that direction

About Dior Homme/Saint Laurent/Celine quality, it depends on the person but for me the quality is declining with each iteration of the HS brand. Regarding the leather, I personally think it's a creative choice (a dumb one at that) to make garments look more vintage-y and more feminine (thinner, softer, lighter..). This genderless direction HS going for in Celine will be his doom. Such look is only appreciated within fashion cliques it has no mass-appeal to it. No wonder Celine isn't selling. Don't start with the grandma purses and the genius idea of putting on the backs of men also. The real decline is in the leather goods. The whole Celine reboot is so unnecessary and honestly a bit embarrassing.

 

[Deonfate]

I think there's a lot of fog surrounding the HS legacy. Beside his fanboys, only french people seem to be hyping him up. Is no one going to address the fact raf simons black palms look like a HS collection when at the time he was sending muscle dudes in swimwear and chiffon blouses? or his concept of a store is very inspired by helmut lang's (especially the Celine ones and their art installations)? or Number (n)ine have been doing the dior homme silhouette and rock inspired shows like 3 years prior to Slimane's?

Everyone evolves and eventually hits their groove. HS is good designer but not a lone genius or one of a kind. His work to me is very lang inspired. Not aesthetically but more following the same ethos of slimming down the silhouette and re-purposing men's staples. He just taking it to new extremes and the Dior/Saint laurent tag really helps. I agree with edward scissor hands comment regarding the Strip collection, his best work started with fall 2004 with few hits and misses here and there.

 

[kieran84]

Number (N)ine was cringe. I'm sure Raf Simons is a talented designer, but all that Avant Garde conceptual stuff doesn't interest me whatsoever. I just want tasteful clothes, that look good and fit well, and that are of solid enough quality. Hedi has delivered that consistently since I started buying his stuff 16 years ago. If that changes I'll go elsewhere.

Hedi also understands British and Parisian style in a way that the others just don't or aren't interested in because of how close to youth culture he is. Number (N)ine and Raf Simons have never made clothes that I would want to wear.

 

[Deonfate]

Number (N)ine was cringe. I'm sure Raf Simons is a talented designer, but all that Avant Garde conceptual stuff doesn't interest me whatsoever. I just want tasteful clothes, that look good and fit well, and that are of solid enough quality. Hedi has delivered that consistently since I started buying his stuff 16 years ago. If that changes I'll go elsewhere.

Hedi also understands British and Parisian style in a way that the others just don't or aren't interested in because of how close to youth culture he is. Number (N)ine and Raf Simons have never made clothes that I would want to wear.

Exactly, HS managed to bring those concepts who've been floating in the fashion sphere for years and deliver them in digestible and appealing pieces.
But this whole authenticity and hedi-isms are.. cringe. As you said before they're just clothes, just over-priced re-purposed 70s thrift store clothes on skinny boys. If you can't find them anywhere but at Celine, then you have to look harder my friend.