The New Brooks Brothers

[Texasmade]

do they sell any of this? his TF stuff looks terrible. same can be said about his regulars own fashion choices. Oh my - future, Gunna or Young Thug make better fashion choices than LH and that says a lot

I'm sure some streetwear style people are into F1 have bought his stuff. Look at Supreme and how terrible that looks but sells out instantly.

 

[wildcat10]

What I'm saying is that you came into Brooks Brothers well after the decline. I'm not saying this judgementally, as I also first went into their stores well after the decline.

The heyday of Brooks Brothers was from about the early 1900s through 1960s. That's when a lot of the stuff they sold was codified into a classic American look -- sack suit, madras, polo coats, tweeds, Shetland knits, etc.

In 1971, they had 11 stores in major cities, mostly located on the coasts. Only a certain segment of American society shopped at Brooks Brothers at this time, many of them elite, white-collar workers. Business-class professionals. Ivy school graduates, etc. Most people who bought "Ivy Style" clothes bought them from clothiers who looked to Brooks for direction. They didn't even have a Brooks store near them. Brooks Brothers was not accessible to them in either price or geography.

In 1946, Winthrop Holly Brooks, the last member of the Brooks family to own the company, sold Brooks Brothers to a DC-based chain called Garfinckle's. Garfinckle's sold the company to Allied in 1981, and then Allied sold it to someone in 1987 (I can't remember the guy's name, but he held it for about a year). In 1988, Marks & Spencer acquired the company along with an acquisition for a grocery store. M&S wanted to expand both greatly throughout the US.

Many mark this as the start of the decline -- from about the 1990s onwards. This was a period of tremendous expansion and some shifting around for manufacturing. Brooks Brothers expanded its outlets and brought in more foreign manufacturers. TAL, the Asian shirtmaking company, started as a Brooks Brothers manufacturer for outlet goods. They later moved into mainline.

By the time M&S sold Brooks to Retail Brand Alliance (Claudio's company) in 2001, there were 155 stores in US and Japan. This is the period when many StyleForum types would have walked into a Brooks Brothers store, as one was finally open near them.

Today, the company has about 500 locations worldwide -- 250 in the US, about 100 of those are outlets. There are about as many mainline stores as there are outlets. Those outlets are again where many people experience Brooks Brothers.

So it's natural for those shoppers to eventually move on to Bonobos, Suitsupply, Untuckit, Charles Trywhitt, etc. They are deal hunters. (Again, not poo-pooing this demographic, as I'm not a rich, white Manhattan exec who bought BB in the 1970s and don't pretend to be one online.)

The world in which Brooks used to occupy may have moved on. People do not take thier sons into a store and introduce them to their SA. Few people wear suits to work. Many do not care about classic American style -- they want something young, sexy, and often Italian. The internet has made it easier to discount shop. Brooks also has too many store locations to hold on to just a luxury business alone.

Reminds me of a story a J. Press person once told me. I think this person has a very clear eye of what has happened to the market. In the 1950s and '60s, J. Press made a business off selling clothes to students at Harvard and Yale. Business since then has declined. Why? Partly because the people who go to Harvard and Yale aren't the same students in the 1950s. In the '50s, those campuses were largely made up of white males from elite private schools. Today, you have a better gender balance, more international students, and more non-white students. You have kids from different economic backgrounds. Those people did not grow up with the same preconceptions of clothes. They may buy one navy sport coat for special events, but they're not going to wear this stuff exclusively.

Thank you for the very informative post, I agree with everything you say.

Regarding the story about Harvard and Yale students, I agree the student bodies have changed dramatically, but even for white males from elite schools, their clothing role models are more likely to be wearing the midtown uniform, rather than BB suits.

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[TheChihuahua]

What I'm saying is that you came into Brooks Brothers well after the decline. I'm not saying this judgementally, as I also first went into their stores well after the decline.

The heyday of Brooks Brothers was from about the early 1900s through 1960s. That's when a lot of the stuff they sold was codified into a classic American look -- sack suit, madras, polo coats, tweeds, Shetland knits, etc.

In 1971, they had 11 stores in major cities, mostly located on the coasts. Only a certain segment of American society shopped at Brooks Brothers at this time, many of them elite, white-collar workers. Business-class professionals. Ivy school graduates, etc. Most people who bought "Ivy Style" clothes bought them from clothiers who looked to Brooks for direction. They didn't even have a Brooks store near them. Brooks Brothers was not accessible to them in either price or geography.

In 1946, Winthrop Holly Brooks, the last member of the Brooks family to own the company, sold Brooks Brothers to a DC-based chain called Garfinckle's. Garfinckle's sold the company to Allied in 1981, and then Allied sold it to someone in 1987 (I can't remember the guy's name, but he held it for about a year). In 1988, Marks & Spencer acquired the company along with an acquisition for a grocery store. M&S wanted to expand both greatly throughout the US.

Many mark this as the start of the decline -- from about the 1990s onwards. This was a period of tremendous expansion and some shifting around for manufacturing. Brooks Brothers expanded its outlets and brought in more foreign manufacturers. TAL, the Asian shirtmaking company, started as a Brooks Brothers manufacturer for outlet goods. They later moved into mainline.

By the time M&S sold Brooks to Retail Brand Alliance (Claudio's company) in 2001, there were 155 stores in US and Japan. This is the period when many StyleForum types would have walked into a Brooks Brothers store, as one was finally open near them.

Today, the company has about 500 locations worldwide -- 250 in the US, about 100 of those are outlets. There are about as many mainline stores as there are outlets. Those outlets are again where many people experience Brooks Brothers.

So it's natural for those shoppers to eventually move on to Bonobos, Suitsupply, Untuckit, Charles Trywhitt, etc. They are deal hunters. (Again, not poo-pooing this demographic, as I'm not a rich, white Manhattan exec who bought BB in the 1970s and don't pretend to be one online.)

The world in which Brooks used to occupy may have moved on. People do not take thier sons into a store and introduce them to their SA. Few people wear suits to work. Many do not care about classic American style -- they want something young, sexy, and often Italian. The internet has made it easier to discount shop. Brooks also has too many store locations to hold on to just a luxury business alone.

Reminds me of a story a J. Press person once told me. I think this person has a very clear eye of what has happened to the market. In the 1950s and '60s, J. Press made a business off selling clothes to students at Harvard and Yale. Business since then has declined. Why? Partly because the people who go to Harvard and Yale aren't the same students in the 1950s. In the '50s, those campuses were largely made up of white males from elite private schools. Today, you have a better gender balance, more international students, and more non-white students. You have kids from different economic backgrounds. Those people did not grow up with the same preconceptions of clothes. They may buy one navy sport coat for special events, but they're not going to wear this stuff exclusively.

by the way I really appreciated this post. Great info.

 

[comrade]

Just a footnote to illustrate Derek's comments: About 15 years ago I went an
MTM trunk show in the San Francisco store. I wanted them to copy some beloved
Chipp tweed jackets which were showing wear and hardly fit after I gave up running.
The Chipp cut was natural shoulder, slightly nipped waist, with side vents. They said
that they could approximate the cut but had no tweed, let alone the somewhat distinctive
tweeds in my jackets. A BB trunk show without tweed?

 

[clee1982]

speaking of Chipp, how is it now compare to back in the day (when his father was still around I assume). I bought cheap tie from Chipp, had alteration done by them once (because the had the cheapest handsewn button hole), as far as the handsewn button goes, not that impressed...

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

If you're after that classic BB look, there are some companies that can supply it. Would not say that Spier & Mackay fits that kind of look. O'Connell's, Andover Shop, J. Press, etc are in that BB world. But again, Brooks was about more than just a look. I think it occupied a very special place in American clothing history.

People who are purists about this stuff will think a lot of RL is pastiche. I think that's true, but I grew up wanting to wear RL, not Brooks Brothers. I think when I was young, that BB world was also already in decline.

RL was from the outside looking in so could see what had objective merit and what was superfluous. Some of RL is costume but there is a reason RL is more successful than BB

at the end of the day, for men, form follows function. All of the archetypes we have come from functional things. If something ceases to be functional, it is coasting

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

Hey, as a long time brooks brothers customer, who has probably owned more brooks brothers than any other brand in my life, I’m just provided what I am observing. They lost me as a customer. Just providing my own insight why. I’m sure there are lots of others like me who left for similar reasons.

your view of brooks brothers might not be what all their customers utilized the brand for. So there are a variety of reasons why they lost this business. Neither one of us is wrong, but rather just highlighting different (and both valid) reasons why it happened.

totally agree

not many people care about BB as some talisman

my dad bought me a BB shirt in like 2006– it was nominally my size but was like a parachute (and not cheap). Perfect color pink though

anyway, I could get a more functional shirt for work at J.Crew for less than half the price

that’s the world BB is living in, not 1960.

 

[gnatty8]

Their OTR shirts are one of their best value in terms of quality, if they fit you.

I've had mostly disastrous results with S&M's MTM program(quality control, shipping times, miscommunication) and switched to Proper Cloth and Ratio Clothing and have been more satisfied.

agree there, I’ve used both Ratio and Proper Cloth for years now and am very happy with the results and value.

 

[othertravel]

Well, it is possible for BB to turn it around. RL was in a difficult spot a few years back, but managed to turn it around (one factor was a strategic decision to start discounting less - especially for their high-end products).

So no more cordovan Marlows for $400.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

This whole conversation is exactly what I was arguing at the outset of the thread. Their original clientele is long gone. That's not to say the people who would normally patronise Brooks Brothers have disappeared, but they have moved on to other things.

I don't see it as a bad thing. In my own corner of the world, for example, the same Northeastern style (we call them Laurentians) has kept some elements like outdoorsy gear - but for formal occasions or suits you're more likely to see something vintage, designer couture, or boutique than so mass market.

Part of it (a lot, really) has to do with quality, but also the fact that you'd have to actually have visited the place to know about the store, and it's low-key, not well-known, etc.

 

[comrade]

speaking of Chipp, how is it now compare to back in the day (when his father was still around I assume). I bought cheap tie from Chipp, had alteration done by them once (because the had the cheapest handsewn button hole), as far as the handsewn button goes, not that impressed...

I shopped there for most of my tailored clothing from the late 70s- early 90s. During
that time I also shopped at Press, Paul Stuart, and Brittany in Chicago. I dealt
w/ Paul Winston. Founder Sid was not around. Chipp had the cut I described above in OTR,
and MTM. I liked it because it was kind of British, but with true natural shoulders and it was
well suited to my build, better than a pure Ivy sack. I stopped using them after I moved to CA
and didn't get to NYC as much. Re: quality control, not uniform. On an MTM suit they
completely screwed up the trousers. Fortunately, I had a tailoring genius in Chicago
who recut them. Chipp paid for the work. I understand that as recently as a few years
ago they were doing bespoke. A bargain, an SF member commented at the time.

 

[TheChihuahua]

This arrived today at my doorstep. I must say, it contained the nicest belt I have ever purchased for $39.

 

[FlyingHorker]

I shopped there for most of my tailored clothing from the late 70s- early 90s. During
that time I also shopped at Press, Paul Stuart, and Brittany in Chicago. I dealt
w/ Paul Winston. Founder Sid was not around. Chipp had the cut I described above in OTR,
and MTM. I liked it because it was kind of British, but with true natural shoulders and it was
well suited to my build, better than a pure Ivy sack. I stopped using them after I moved to CA
and didn't get to NYC as much. Re: quality control, not uniform. On an MTM suit they
completely screwed up the trousers. Fortunately, I had a tailoring genius in Chicago
who recut them. Chipp paid for the work. I understand that as recently as a few years
ago they were doing bespoke. A bargain, an SF member commented at the time.

I think Chipp tailoring is fully retired now.

Another relevant story from Paul, this one related to patchwork.

"A few years after we started a number of makers joined the club. After the patch madras we did tweed and then cashmere.

We had our stock jackets made by Linett. Brooks 346 jackets were made by Linett. They had a range of patch Madras made by Linett. We had about 50, which was a lot of one jacket for Chipp.

We sold out in a few weeks. Brooks couldn't sell their stock. In the sill of the night - it was about 9:00 PM , in those days everyone closed at 6:00 - we went across the street and carried all the Brooks jackets to our shop.

After changing the labels we sold them all."

 

[classicalthunde]

I think Chipp tailoring is fully retired now.

Another relevant story from Paul, this one related to patchwork.

"A few years after we started a number of makers joined the club. After the patch madras we did tweed and then cashmere.

We had our stock jackets made by Linett. Brooks 346 jackets were made by Linett. They had a range of patch Madras made by Linett. We had about 50, which was a lot of one jacket for Chipp.

We sold out in a few weeks. Brooks couldn't sell their stock. In the sill of the night - it was about 9:00 PM , in those days everyone closed at 6:00 - we went across the street and carried all the Brooks jackets to our shop.

After changing the labels we sold them all."

can confirm, give them a call at this summer and he referred me to “Izzy” at LS Men’s Clothing, and told me to ask for the “chipp cut” which I’m assuming is their H. Freeman cut/model

apparently he is in his late 70s and his tailor is in his late 80s!

was disappointed to find that out, I had reached out to them a year or two prior and then decided to shelve the project for a bit. Day late and a dollar short unfortunately...

 

[clee1982]

I shopped there for most of my tailored clothing from the late 70s- early 90s. During
that time I also shopped at Press, Paul Stuart, and Brittany in Chicago. I dealt
w/ Paul Winston. Founder Sid was not around. Chipp had the cut I described above in OTR,
and MTM. I liked it because it was kind of British, but with true natural shoulders and it was
well suited to my build, better than a pure Ivy sack. I stopped using them after I moved to CA
and didn't get to NYC as much. Re: quality control, not uniform. On an MTM suit they
completely screwed up the trousers. Fortunately, I had a tailoring genius in Chicago
who recut them. Chipp paid for the work. I understand that as recently as a few years
ago they were doing bespoke. A bargain, an SF member commented at the time.

I remember his bespoke was still pretty cheap (like less than $3k?) when I did the alteration and asked him about it (2013/2014?), but I guess my buttonhole was pretty meh so I kind didn't feel inquire further (probably not the right thing to judge on, but I guess not a great first impression).

edit: I don't recall him referring to some other guy, but I guess it was bunch generic questions asking around