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The Middle Class Mind / The Wealthy Mind

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Lighthouse, Jun 8, 2011.

  1. otc

    otc Senior member

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    Is this thread intentional necro-deja-vu?
     
  2. mkarim

    mkarim Senior member

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    Yes. The lottery is the only way to get rich quickly.

    Even the "overnight success" stories you hear about involved many years of backbreaking work getting up to that fateful "night."


    +1.

    You have to pay your dues. Also the middle class needs to understand that everyone is trying to sell them the "American Dream" but are only benefittting their own bottom line.
     
  3. Don Carlos

    Don Carlos Senior member

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    The distinction between wealth and a high income is true, of course, and often overlooked but I think the quote is wrong, or out of date. At the top end in corporate America--and I don't just mean CEOs but also the top tier of executives--it is quite possible to get rich on a salary (plus bonus plus stock grants). These people can make millions per year, live lavishly, and still have plenty left over to amass tens of millions over a career. In banking, the money is bigger and the number of people who earn big time are more.
    I think our disagreement is probably one of semantics more than anything else. A thread like this will always be fraught, for instance, with confusion over the definition of "rich" or "wealthy" or what have you. As for the corp exec argument, I've made a few comments about that a few posts back. These days, the best path to the C suite isn't putting in 30 years at the company and being a company man; it's creating a personal brand and leveraging it. In this sense, the "ownership" argument still applies. Banking/finance is slightly difficult to fit into this thread's framework. That's just a whole different ball of wax, and it tests the definitions and rules we can apply to any game we're discussing here. One thing I can say for certain is that banking does not embody the middle-class salaryman mentality the OP talked about. And even if we were discussing the realm of finance, the ones getting relatively rich compared to their peers aren't the bankers. They're the hedge fund managers and shop owners. So ownership still does trump salary, even when we're discussing the rarefied air of high finance.
     
  4. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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  5. Freewheeler

    Freewheeler Well-Known Member

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    Making millions as part of your salary isn't going to make you fuck-you rich. It'll make you highly paid, and it'll make you rich by many people's standards. But it won't make you rich enough to be able to drop everything, go bum around the world and live a life of leisure for a few years, and come back without any financial concern whatsoever.

    Let's say you make $1MM a year. Including all taxes (federal, state, etc.), let's say 40-50% of that money goes away. So you've got $500,000. Let's say you have a wife and a few kids, no doubt going to expensive private schools and soon to be going to expensive private colleges. And you've got a nice car, a nice house, and so on and so forth. Then you've got living expenses. All said and done, you're lucky to be socking away $200k at the end of the year. At that rate, even with modest salary increases and compound interest, you're not getting fuck-you rich in your lifetime.

    Now, if we're talking about something like a $5MM or $10MM a year salary? I'd argue that that's the point at which you're not really making a "salary" per se anymore, but are in fact selling your personal brand / value. Professional athletes aren't really making salaries, for instance. They're selling their brands. They're selling their own effect on ticket sales and merch sales and TV ratings.

    As for corporate CEOs and other C-level officers? They're not getting rich off of their salaries; they're getting rich off of their stock and other ownership incentives.


    Plenty of executives in media make 10M+ a year as part of a salary - not stock. You quoted "Nobody ever got rich off a salary. No matter how high the salary." That's bullshit obviously. You can't say "No matter how high the salary" and then change your tune when you learn that people are multi-millionaires strictly from the salary that they have earned over the years.
     
  6. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think our disagreement is probably one of semantics more than anything else. A thread like this will always be fraught, for instance, with confusion over the definition of "rich" or "wealthy" or what have you.

    As for the corp exec argument, I've made a few comments about that a few posts back. These days, the best path to the C suite isn't putting in 30 years at the company and being a company man; it's creating a personal brand and leveraging it. In this sense, the "ownership" argument still applies.

    Banking/finance is slightly difficult to fit into this thread's framework. That's just a whole different ball of wax, and it tests the definitions and rules we can apply to any game we're discussing here. One thing I can say for certain is that banking does not embody the middle-class salaryman mentality the OP talked about. And even if we were discussing the realm of finance, the ones getting relatively rich compared to their peers aren't the bankers. They're the hedge fund managers and shop owners. So ownership still does trump salary, even when we're discussing the rarefied air of high finance.


    I don't know enough about the path people take to get there (except that I never will), but I have seen plenty of people in their 40s and 50s who make several million a year and who can leave their jobs with eight digits in the bank. They don't seem like brands to me, they certainly are not well known outside their own companies and maybe the narrow community of people who hold similar jobs (CFO, GC, head of IR, etc.).

    In finance, I personally know a number of people who have never worked at hedge funds but always have been at big banks, publicly traded banks, who earn well into the millions and they started doing so at a younger age than (say) a CFO. Yes, hedge fund guys are much richer but when you have a place at the San Remo, a place in the Hamptons, are on the board of the AMNH and the Whitney, you have real money even if someone else has more.

    This is very anecdotal, I admit.
     
  7. Don Carlos

    Don Carlos Senior member

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    Plenty of executives in media make 10M+ a year as part of a salary - not stock. You quoted "Nobody ever got rich off a salary. No matter how high the salary." That's bullshit obviously. You can't say "No matter how high the salary" and then change your tune when you learn that people are multi-millionaires strictly from the salary that they have earned over the years.

    See, now we're just playing a semantics game. I think it'll go nowhere productive.

    My argument is primarily concerned with "rich" as defined as "fuck-you" rich, and that involves more than earning a $10MM a year salary. You could argue that it demands quantification of precisely what I'd consider to be fuck-you money, and while you'd have a point, that's somewhat orthogonal to the illustrative use of my quote in the first place.

    The lesson of the quote is still valid, no matter what sort of semantic nitpicking we want to do on the word choices: ownership and risk-seeking is the best path to bigtime fortune. Not salary. Furthermore, I hardly think it's instructive to look at $10MM salaries and think that they are in any way representative of the salaries most people will ever make.
     
  8. Carlisle Blues

    Carlisle Blues Senior member

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    ownership and risk-seeking is the best path to bigtime fortune. Not salary. Furthermore, I hardly think it's instructive to look at $10MM salaries and think that they are in any way representative of the salaries most people will ever make.
    I agree, it is having the courage of your convictions regarding accumulation of wealth and trusting your instincts and talents. Striking out on your own, whether it is owning your own business or making investments taking the risk. A salary is provided to those who let others take the risk for them IMO.
     
  9. Lighthouse

    Lighthouse Senior member

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    I agree, it is having the courage of your convictions regarding accumulation of wealth and trusting your instincts and talents. Striking out on your own, whether it is owning your own business or making investments taking the risk. A salary is provided to those who let others take the risk for them IMO.

    By either Manton's or DonCarlos' standards, I'd be quite happy. I would assume that striking out on ones own requires a supportive spouse and nail biting over bills, perhaps eating ham sandwiches for a while. I made this leap several years ago, but my industry went to shit in late 2008 and, being a "Green Sprout," it didn't take long to destroy the dream.
     
  10. Freewheeler

    Freewheeler Well-Known Member

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    See, now we're just playing a semantics game. I think it'll go nowhere productive.

    My argument is primarily concerned with "rich" as defined as "fuck-you" rich, and that involves more than earning a $10MM a year salary. You could argue that it demands quantification of precisely what I'd consider to be fuck-you money, and while you'd have a point, that's somewhat orthogonal to the illustrative use of my quote in the first place.

    The lesson of the quote is still valid, no matter what sort of semantic nitpicking we want to do on the word choices: ownership and risk-seeking is the best path to bigtime fortune. Not salary. Furthermore, I hardly think it's instructive to look at $10MM salaries and think that they are in any way representative of the salaries most people will ever make.


    Then don't use a stupid and inaccurate quote about salaries, which uses the words "no matter how high". If you can add, then you know that someone who makes 10 million plus a year and has been doing that for a few years - then they obviously are worth more than 10 million dollars. 10 million a year for 10 years, minus the taxes and what do you get? Is that fuck you money?

    By the way, 10 million dollars is easily fuck you money for most people, when you consider the fact that you can live out the rest of your life very well with much less if you are smart with the money. Are you telling me the guy who lives on 40,000 a year for many years now, can't quit his job tomorrow and live a great life with his 10 million dollars minus taxes? I am quite sure he would be in a position to tell everyone to fuck off and die a very happy man who never had to work for money to live since.

    It sounds like fuck you money by your standards is to be able to blow millions of dollars on cocaine, hookers, cars and nice clothes or whatever you want to waste money on - but still have a huge chunk of change in the bank. I guess Bruce Wayne is fuck you money.
     
  11. Carlisle Blues

    Carlisle Blues Senior member

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    By either Manton's or DonCarlos' standards, I'd be quite happy. I would assume that striking out on ones own requires a supportive spouse and nail biting over bills, perhaps eating ham sandwiches for a while. I made this leap several years ago, but my industry went to shit in late 2008 and, being a "Green Sprout," it didn't take long to destroy the dream.
    To me it meant knowing that in the beginning I would get paid the least and last, that "delayed gratification" regarding luxuries would be my mantra and and it may take years to realize my financial dreams. On the other hand, whatever I made was because of my devotion, skill and execution of my duties. I put my head on the pillow at night knowing that it was my business and I would make it no matter what. I considered myself a rich man long before I ever went out on my own. That was the impetus for opening my business. I was simply not afraid to fail.
     
  12. saiyar1

    saiyar1 Senior member

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    please explain investment bankers as well :x

    Same as what was discussed about selling your "brand". Bankers have connections, relationships, and influence to bring business to their respective employer. Investment bankers, NOT analysts/associates/VP's doing grunt work, don't sit there doing any "work" the way most of us do. They are traveling and negotiating with C-level guys at firms looking to possibly sell more stock, issue bonds, merge, etc. They are super-high level salesmen/relationship managers.
     
  13. Don Carlos

    Don Carlos Senior member

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    Then don't use a stupid and inaccurate quote about salaries, which uses the words "no matter how high".
    Oh, for fuck's sake. First of all, you're WAY too hung up on the wording of that quote. You don't like the lettering of the second sentence? Fine. Fair. I'll concede that it was a poor choice. That said, the spirit of the quote holds true, and it's pretty fucking far from "stupid." Certainly wiser and more worthwhile than the inane semantics discussion you've brought to bear on this thread.
    Didn't I just predict that you'd start getting into a semantics discussion on quantifying the definition of fuck-you money? Did I not just call this and suggest that it was orthogonal to my point? I did, didn't I? Look, man. I don't know what's up your ass tonight, first of all, but your tone is a little unnecessarily aggro. Second, you're missing my point repeatedly in service of stupid semantics discussions. If I had any interest in continually picking nits over word choices with you, I have no doubt you'd be up for it all night. Unfortunately, I lack the interest. I don't think you've suggested anything that detracts from my broader point. Rather, you've bitten relentlessly into the quote I cited -- which was supposed to be a philosophical jumping-off point, and whose implications are still valid. If that's not computing with you, I'm sorry. We're just not going to go anywhere productive or worthwhile with more semantics debate, and I hope you feel the same. If not, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm done with it. I've made my point, it's a valid one, and if folks want to spin their wheels on the word choices like a bunch of lawyers in discovery, that's their prerogative. Going forward, I'd suggest that you bring productive value to the thread, such as offering your take on the OP's discussion. What, in your esteemed and scholarly opinion, is the better path to wealth? Clearly everything I've said has been like pig slop compared to the pearls you're about to lay down for everyone.
     
  14. Freewheeler

    Freewheeler Well-Known Member

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    Oh, for fuck's sake. First of all, you're WAY too hung up on the wording of that quote. You don't like the lettering of the second sentence? Fine. Fair. I'll concede that it was a poor choice.

    That said, the spirit of the quote holds true.



    Didn't I just predict that you'd start getting into a semantics discussion on quantifying the definition of fuck-you money? Did I not just call this and suggest that it was orthogonal to my point?

    I did, didn't I?

    Look, man. I don't know what's up your ass tonight, first of all, but your tone is a little unnecessarily aggro. Second, you're missing my point repeatedly in service of stupid semantics discussions. If I had any interest in continually picking nits over word choices with you, I have no doubt you'd be up for it all night. Unfortunately, I lack the interest.

    I don't think you've suggested anything that detracts from my broader point. Rather, you've bitten relentlessly into the quote I cited -- which was supposed to be a philosophical jumping-off point, and whose implications are still valid. If that's not computing with you, I'm sorry. We're just not going to go anywhere productive or worthwhile with more semantics debate, and I hope you feel the same. If not, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm done with it. I've made my point, it's a valid one, and if folks want to spin their wheels on the word choices like a bunch of lawyers in discovery, that's their prerogative.


    So you can't even back up or further explain your own obviously weak point? Good job there.
     
  15. Don Carlos

    Don Carlos Senior member

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    So you can't even back up or further explain your own obviously weak point? Good job there.
    You are aggressively dense, and your snark is backed up by nothing of substance. I hope the others on this thread can pick up where we left off before you derailed it with your inane "contributions." Peace.
     
  16. Freewheeler

    Freewheeler Well-Known Member

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    You are aggressively dense, and your snark is backed up by nothing of substance. I hope the others on this thread can pick up where we left off before you derailed it with your inane "contributions."

    Peace.


    I wish you could add some substance to your own argument. I shot bullet holes through your idea of logic and now you have nothing.
     
  17. Don Carlos

    Don Carlos Senior member

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    I wish you could add some substance to your own argument. I shot bullet holes through your idea of logic and now you have nothing.
    [​IMG] You "shot bullet holes" through the wording on the second half of a quote I brought up. You have addressed nothing whatsoever of my logic. Let me spell out the logic for you in kid-friendly, easily digestible bullet points: 1) Salaries (for most people; $10MM+ salaries are not indicative of most corp salaries) are not a typically great path to fuck-you wealth. 2) Ownership and risk-seeking, backed by hard work, is a better path to fuck-you wealth. Do you disagree with that logic? If so, you haven't really said anything on the subject.
     
  18. Lighthouse

    Lighthouse Senior member

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    To me it meant knowing that in the beginning I would get paid the least and last, that "delayed gratification" regarding luxuries would be my mantra and and it may take years to realize my financial dreams. On the other hand, whatever I made was because of my devotion, skill and execution of my duties. I put my head on the pillow at night knowing that it was my business and I would make it no matter what.

    I considered myself a rich man long before I ever went out on my own. That was the impetus for opening my business. I was simply not afraid to fail.


    This is where I think all roads are heading. I guess there was the guy who invented the twirly pop and pet rock, but those guys are the exception. Its mostly giving some value to the purchaser of your skills/products.
     
  19. bob99

    bob99 Senior member

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    Mark Cuban (billionaire, owner of the Dallas Mavericks, film producer) has written about this on his blog. He's a proponent of the "no shortcuts" school of thought.

    I've copied one of his posts below, you can find more at www.blogmaverick.com

    Interesting discussion!

    How to Get Rich (by Mark Cuban)

    Thats what so many want. Right ? I'm certainly not going to lie and say it is not a whole lot better having lots of money. I had a whole lot of fun and loved my life when I was eating mustard and ketchup sandwiches and sleeping on the floor of a 3 bedroom apartment that housed me and 5 buddies.

    I have a whole lot more fun now. It doesn't suck to be rich.

    The question everyone wants answered, is how to get there. There are ways to get there. But there is not a template that works every time for everyone. It works sometimes. Getting there requires being ready when opportunity presents itself.

    IMHO, change and uncertainty create opportunity. Times like we are facing now, with complete financial uncertainty are perfect times to start on the road to getting ahead financially.

    First, here is WHAT NOT TO DO:

    There are no shortcuts. NONE. With all of this craziness in the stock and financial markets, there will be scams popping up left and right. The less money you have, the more likely someone will come at you with some scheme . The schemes will guarantee returns, use multi level marketing, or be something crazy that is now "backed by the US Government". Please ignore them. Always remember this. If a deal is a great deal, they aren't going to share it with you.

    I dont broadcast my great deals. I keep them all to myself. The 2nd thing to remember is that if the person selling the deal was so smart, they would be rich beyond rich rather than trolling the streets looking to turn you into a sucker. There are no shortcuts.

    So what should you do to get rich ?

    Save your money. Save as much money as you possibly can. Every penny you can. Instead of coffee, drink water. Instead of going to McDonalds, eat Mac and Cheese. Cut up your credit cards. If you use a credit card, you dont want to be rich. The first step to getting rich, requires discipline. If you really want to be rich, you need to find the discipline, can you ?

    If you can, you will quickly find that the greatest rate of return you will earn is on your own personal spending. Being a smart shopper is the first step to getting rich. Yeah you have to give things up and that doesn't work for everyone, particularly if you have a family. That is reality. But whatever you can save, save it. As much as you possibly can. Then put it in 6 month CDs in the bank.

    The first step to getting rich is having cash available. You arent saving for retirement. You are saving for the moment you need cash. Buy and hold is a suckers game for you. This market is a perfect example. Right at the very moment when cash creates unbelievable opportunity, those who followed the buy and hold strategy have no cash. they cant or wont sell into markets this low, that kills the entire point of buy and hold. Those who have put their money in CDs sleep well at night and definitely have more money today than they did yesterday. And because they are smart, disciplined shoppers, their personal rate of inflation is within their means. Cash is king for those wanting to get rich

    The 2nd rule for getting rich is getting smart. Investing your time in yourself and becoming knowledgeable about the business of something you really love to do

    It doesn't matter what it is. Whatever your hobbies, interests, passions are. Find the one you love the best and GET A JOB in the business that supports it.

    It could be as a clerk, a salesperson, whatever you can find. You have to start learning the business somewhere. Instead of paying to go to school somewhere, you are getting paid to learn. It may not be the perfect job, but there is no perfect path to getting rich.

    Before or after work and on weekends, every single day, read everything there is to read about the business. Go to trade shows, read the trade magazines, spend a lot of time talking to the people you do business with about their business and the people they buy from.

    This is not a short term project. We aren't talking days. We aren't talking months. We are talking years. Lots of years and maybe decades. I didn't say this was a get rich quick scheme. This is a get rich path

    Now you wait for times of uncertainty and change in your business. The time will come. It may come quickly, it may take years and years. But it will come. The nature of our country's business infrastructure is that it is destined to be boom and bust. Booms are when the smart people sell. Busts are when rich people started on their path to wealth.

    You will know when that time is here for you because you will know your business inside and out. You will be ready because you will have been saving up for this moment in time

    With all the change and uncertainty in the financial markets, there are people right now making more money than they ever dreamed of. They are the ones who have been living the real estate market and the financing behind it and understanding what actually what was going on. They re the one who understood the complexities of the credit markets. When everyone was following the crowd, they kept on saving their money and avoiding the temptation of groupthink.

    Boom and busts happen to every industry. The question is whether you have the discipline to be ready when it happens for you ?

    If you do, you will find out what it feels like to get lucky.
     
  20. slycedbred

    slycedbred Senior member

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    Then don't use a stupid and inaccurate quote about salaries, which uses the words "no matter how high". If you can add, then you know that someone who makes 10 million plus a year and has been doing that for a few years - then they obviously are worth more than 10 million dollars. 10 million a year for 10 years, minus the taxes and what do you get? Is that fuck you money?

    By the way, 10 million dollars is easily fuck you money for most people, when you consider the fact that you can live out the rest of your life very well with much less if you are smart with the money. Are you telling me the guy who lives on 40,000 a year for many years now, can't quit his job tomorrow and live a great life with his 10 million dollars minus taxes? I am quite sure he would be in a position to tell everyone to fuck off and die a very happy man who never had to work for money to live since.

    It sounds like fuck you money by your standards is to be able to blow millions of dollars on cocaine, hookers, cars and nice clothes or whatever you want to waste money on - but still have a huge chunk of change in the bank. I guess Bruce Wayne is fuck you money.


    You're completely missing the point, brah
     

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