The Made-to-Measure Thread

[Nobilis Animus]

I've heard this story and another: when two-button jackets became a fad sometime in the early 20th century, cash-strapped university students in America started pressing their three-button jackets as a two, thus leaving the back of the top buttonhole showing.



Are you an American? I admit, I'm surprised when I read American members here say they don't understand the appeal of 3r2 jackets, penny loafers, or button downs. This country has such an incredibly rich and beautiful tradition when it comes to men's dress. Things like floppy button-down collars and 3r2 jackets are just part of that history. Clothing is about social history and not purely visual design.

Right, and in either case, the social history plays a role. American tradition is definitely its own category, no matter what its original inspiration.

 

[bdavro23]

This is a great idea for a thread!

On the question of the 3r2, I can offer this contrast. The suit on the left and jacket on the right are from the same MTM shop (Ezra Paul in DC).
View attachment 1482249 View attachment 1482250
The shoulders and sleeves are obviously very different (the suit has a more angular roped shoulder while the jacket has a softer shoulder with a spalla sleevehead). But the button difference imho makes a big difference in the formality of the jacket. The 2-button suit creates a deeper v which I think makes the shoulders look broader and the waist narrower while the 3r2 of the jacket gives the entire look a rounder, softer, more casual appearance.

On the other hand, it could all just be in my head. Useless aesthetic flourishes can be fun!

These both look really nice!

 

[heldentenor]

This is a great idea for a thread!

On the question of the 3r2, I can offer this contrast. The suit on the left and jacket on the right are from the same MTM shop (Ezra Paul in DC).
View attachment 1482249 View attachment 1482250
The shoulders and sleeves are obviously very different (the suit has a more angular roped shoulder while the jacket has a softer shoulder with a spalla sleevehead). But the button difference imho makes a big difference in the formality of the jacket. The 2-button suit creates a deeper v which I think makes the shoulders look broader and the waist narrower while the 3r2 of the jacket gives the entire look a rounder, softer, more casual appearance.

On the other hand, it could all just be in my head. Useless aesthetic flourishes can be fun!

Great examples. I love both, but the proportions on the 3/2 jacket are more to my preference.

 

[dieworkwear]

Three roll twos are a deeply American thing. I suppose it's fine if you're an American don't like it, but I'm surprised by someone who doesn't "get" it. It's like not understanding baseball or Coca Cola. I don't watch baseball or drink Coca Cola, but I understand that those are part of this country's traditions.

Even Rudolph Valentino, an Italian, knew what was up when he lived in America

And Yamamoto-san of Tailor CAID

 

[FlyingHorker]

On a different note, I'd heard about the Paddock Suit, but JFK's suit always looked terrible to me.

I love the way this one looks

 

[TheSuitBurnsBetter]

Great examples. I love both, but the proportions on the 3/2 jacket are more to my preference.

I'm much more of a suit guy (and a stuffy one at that) but I really love how the sportcoat turned out. Has been very useful now that pants are pretty much unnecessary.

 

[cr2596]

It may not have occured to you, but there might be clients of some of the companies who's names you've dropped reading this. Its pretty inconsiderate/ irresponsible to quote wholesale prices in an open forum. You probably want to edit your post.

Says the dude who quoted the original post without editing out the prices himself.

 

[classicalthunde]

On a different note, I'd heard about the Paddock Suit, but JFK's suit always looked terrible to me.

I love the way this one looks

ive always found this style interesting , I don’t think I have the frame to pull it off...also, it seems to be so obscure at this juncture in time that 99% of people would just assume the person doesn’t know why their doing and make a rookie mistake of buttoning both by accident instead of intentionally

 

[FlyingHorker]

ive always found this style interesting , I don’t think I have the frame to pull it off...also, it seems to be so obscure at this juncture in time that 99% of people would just assume the person doesn’t know why their doing and make a rookie mistake of buttoning both by accident instead of intentionally

Agreed, even most menswear people would likely think it's an accident or cluelessness.

Which is why I find this so interesting in that the actual cut has been accommodated for buttoning both buttons, especially in relation to the coat's natural waist.

 

[classicalthunde]

Three roll twos are a deeply American thing. I suppose it's fine if you're an American don't like it, but I'm surprised by someone who doesn't "get" it. It's like not understanding baseball or Coca Cola. I don't watch baseball or drink Coca Cola, but I understand that those are part of this country's traditions.


View attachment 1482333 View attachment 1482334 View attachment 1482335 View attachment 1482336 View attachment 1482338 View attachment 1482343

Even Rudolph Valentino, an Italian, knew what was up when he lived in America

View attachment 1482337


And Yamamoto-san of Tailor CAID

View attachment 1482340

Between these 3r2 examples and the polo coat ones in the Bespoke thread...do you just have a huge inventory of classic images of menswear style examples?

Next time I’m looking for examples for my tailor I might shoot up the Die Work Wear signal into the SF night sky

 

[dieworkwear]

Between these 3r2 examples and the polo coat ones in the Bespoke thread...do you just have a huge inventory of classic images of menswear style examples?

Embarrassingly, yes. Many gigs at this point.

 

[bdavro23]

Says the dude who quoted the original post without editing out the prices himself.

Thanks kind citizen, you've clearly honed in on the root of the problem.

Also, do try to keep up. You're taking us backwards over ground already covered and theres no need to get off topic again

 

[Spaghettimatt]

@dieworkwear

Do you have any insight—myths or otherwise—into how 3-r-2 jackets became the standard in Southern Italian tailoring? I always found it interesting that this seemingly took root in both American trad and Southern Italian at around the same time presumably without much crossover (though query whether there was some, e.g., post-war Americans in Italy a la Talented Mr. Ripley)?

 

[dieworkwear]

@dieworkwear

Do you have any insight—myths or otherwise—into how 3-r-2 jackets became the standard in Southern Italian tailoring? I always found it interesting that this seemingly took root in both American trad and Southern Italian at around the same time presumably without much crossover (though query whether there was some, e.g., post-war Americans in Italy a la Talented Mr. Ripley)?

Hm, not sure.

 

[dieworkwear]

This is a total guess and mostly made up from random things I know about Neapolitan tailoring. So take it for what it's worth (which is probably little).

Even in the early 20th century, we see the 3r2 showing up in Neapolitan tailoring. At the time, Angelo Blasi was one of the more prominent tailors in the area, and we see the lapel on his suit jacket rolling to the second buttoning point.

It may be that his coat just wasn't pressed very well, but his student Renato Ciardi also made coats in this way

The head cutter at Rubinacci at the time, Vincenzo Attolini, also made coats in this manner. Attolini is credited with having "invented" Neapolitan style. You can see how Blasi coats were very structured. Attolini coats were soft, and after he introduced this cut, other tailors in the region followed

Still, the center for men's tailoring at this time was still London, and many Neapolitan tailoring houses prided themselves on being as close to British tailoring as possible. When he first opened his tailoring shop, Gennaro Rubinacci originally called his company London House for this reason -- it added cultural legitimacy.

As far as I know, the standard on Savile Row at the time was a two-button for suits and three-button for sport coats. I don't think 3r2 was a thing in London.

I've heard two origin stories for the 3r2. The first is that three-button sport coats naturally become a 3r2 unless you give them a fresh re-pressing, as the lapel is wont to roll further over time. The other origin story, as I mentioned earlier, is that cash strapped university students in the United States started re-pressing their three-button coats into a two-button when two-button coats became more fashionable. All this was, again, at the turn of the 20th century.

In Southern Italy, a lot of the tailoring trade sprang up in the shadow of London tailoring, not just in terms of style, but also production. In the 17th and 18th centuries, wealthy, upper-class British men used to travel throughout Western Europe when they came of age (this was called The Grand Tour). This was like how rich American kids travel throughout Europe during their senior year, or shortly after graduating. While there, many of these British men brought their clothes with them, to have them copied by more affordable Neapolitan tailors. Much of the Neapolitan tailring industry was built up in this way, kind of like how people send their clothes to Hong Kong to be copied. So it may have been that Neapolitan tailors were just copying old, beaten-up coats. (This is just me guessing).

You can see some of this tradition evolve in other ways. When he was alive, the Italian musician Paolo Tosti used to have his clothes made by Scholte, the Dutch English tailor who invented the London Drape cut. Things that didn't get that much wear ended up in the hands of poorer relatives back in Rome. And then those relatives would take their garments to Caraceni for alterations. Supposedly, Caraceni studied that Scholte garments when he wrote his tailoring manuals. And those tailoring manuals eventually influenced Vincenzo Attolini (which is how we get soft Italian style).

So it may be that the 3r2 landed in Southern Italy as a result of the Grand Tour, rich Italians sending their clothes back home to relatives, and a bit about traveling tailoring manuals. But I don't know for sure.