The Made-to-Measure Thread

[classicalthunde]

I thought I would talk briefly about one of the first garments that I had made, because I think its important to understand some of the evolution that goes along with having clothing made. It was the second garment, a suit in slightly darker than mid grey sharkskin that I still have. And it had all the bells and whistles. One button, big peak lapel, besom ticket pocket and flap hacking pockets on the jacket, side adjusters and button fly on the trousers, with one back pocket and 2" cuff. Oh, and it has a stupid lining in it too...

Today, I would never have that suit made, but I'm glad that I did. I think that I, and perhaps a lot of people, start making clothing and get excited about the novelty of the possibilities. It took me a while, probably a couple of years to really understand what I liked and what was my style. I suppose that it is still evolving, though certainly at a much slower pace than back then.

I still make mistakes too, though. Last year I made a grey odd jacket out of this really interesting 50/50 silk wool cloth with a unique pattern to it. Unfortunately, from more than 3 feet away it just looks like worsted suiting cloth and resolves as an orphaned suit jacket. To the average, non-SF person, I'm sure it looks great, but I couldnt get past it and gave it to a friend. Hopefully I've learned from that, and my other mistakes, but I'm sure there will be more down the line...

definitely had the urge to do this on my first MTM order but resisted per the SF norms. that suit has long since been donated, so i kind of wish i had at this point.

on the other hand, i feel like i'm the complete opposite now. All my future sport coat commissions are tentatively 3r2, with patch pockets …I'm tempted to switch some of them up a bit so i don't have basically 6 of the same thing in different fabrics.

maybe a patch and flap pocket here or a ticket pocket there, hard to come up with rules of thumb on how much variation is good vs. bad

 

[TokenMao]

Ah yes, I understand now haha, there is price differences. Rota and Ring Jacket are good examples.

Say The Armoury Rota's have more hand work so they start off at $500 which is reasonable because fabric etc. Rota are around $400 for wool, $300 for cotton.

Ring Jacket has 2 distinct levels, Regular line and Ring Meister. Ring Meister has more hand work so they cost around $1000 in Asia vs $600 for regular line. Obviously duties and house models may inflate the cost slightly. Armoury is based off Ring Meister and cost $1200-$1600 which is definitely not x4 ?

So x4 mark ups with same manufacturer tells you what kind of stores they are.

Interesting, never knew that Armoury RJ models were based off Ring Meister, curious as to where you heard that from

 

[Crispyj]

Interesting, never knew that Armoury RJ models were based off Ring Meister, curious as to where you heard that from

See this post.
Edit: Also from the way they conduct the MTM trunk shows, limited options to what they can change/alter, makes me believe they are very rigid on the patterns they make.

Well, you have to remember Ring Jacket is a RTW company that offers MTM. They develop their own models, mostly for domestic markets, catering to Asian bodies.

I have read from a Korean menswear store owner who also carries his own RJ models (like The Armoury AMJ03) that RJ is very reluctant to give out their house developed patterns. Most of these private models are tweaked from existing RJ models.

The current base pattern for most of RJ and other brand model is the 2X3, developed 8 years ago. The base pattern used before 2X3 was the model 184 (which we all know). Model 184 is like 30 years old! So you can kind of see how staunch they are about their patterns. The Armoury seems to get special treatment as they get new models every year .... I'm joking. Mark probably helps RJ develop some of their in house model so he gets extra perks, AMJ07 = RJ Model 290.

RJ MTM is pretty lacking, RTW is great if it fits. I'd pony up for Orazio or 101 Series if I had to go MTM.

 

[bdavro23]

definitely had the urge to do this on my first MTM order but resisted per the SF norms. that suit has long since been donated, so i kind of wish i had at this point.

on the other hand, i feel like i'm the complete opposite now. All my future sport coat commissions are tentatively 3r2, with patch pockets …I'm tempted to switch some of them up a bit so i don't have basically 6 of the same thing in different fabrics.

maybe a patch and flap pocket here or a ticket pocket there, hard to come up with rules of thumb on how much variation is good vs. bad

My jacket details these days are pretty consistent: notch, 3 roll 2, side vents, patch hip pockets, lightweight canvas, very soft shoulder. I find that these attributes match the way I dress and fit my lifestyle. I have played around with construction a little bit to vary the look and silhouette of things however. Maybe a more substantial canvas and shoulder for a more formal jacket, or moving the position and size of the lapel. The details are largely the same, just interpreted differently to say something different.

For me, I think theres a lot more room for changing things around with suits. I currently have 1 button, 2 button, and 3 roll 2 suits in my wardrobe. I dont have a Steve Harvey 6 button suit, but we're building a new house with a lot more closet space, so I'm not closing any doors...

 

[FlyingHorker]

in addition, the price is a result of negotiations. a particular negotiation between parties at a particular time. as such, price negotiated in one context may have very little to do in another. Bob, learning that he is paying double what Alice is paying, would not be too happy and would start raising questions. now, the proper answer to Bob, just like in the parable of the grapes collectors, would be "That is the deal we made." but that certainly would add stress to the relationship, may cause re-negotiations on and on. now, add Janice, Farrell, Tom, Claudia etc. etc. into the system. this is the sort of headache no supplier wants.

and I concur, at least to me, this all seems sort of obvious.

thank you, this makes sense.

 

[Thin White Duke]

I realise it’s ‘all about personal preferences’ but can someone please explain to me the SF fascination / obsession with 3r2 jackets?
I either see that trad style in which there is no ‘r’ at all, it’s just a two button jacket with the lapel pressed flat and an ugly vestigial button hole in the bottom of the lapel, or else in the case of eg a lot of Daniel Craig’s Bond suits, the top button and button hole are invisible behind the fold back of the lower lapel, in which case why not just get a two button anyway?

 

[classicalthunde]

I realise it’s ‘all about personal preferences’ but can someone please explain to me the SF fascination / obsession with 3r2 jackets?
I either see that trad style in which there is no ‘r’ at all, it’s just a two button jacket with the lapel pressed flat and an ugly vestigial button hole in the bottom of the lapel, or else in the case of eg a lot of Daniel Craig’s Bond suits, the top button and button hole are invisible behind the fold back of the lower lapel, in which case why not just get a two button anyway?

Personally, I like the trad affectation...In the practical realm, it’s just as vestigial as the bottom button on a 2 or 3-button sport coat

 

[induere_to]

Some people like sunrises; others like sunsets. Me, I like misty graveyards on the eve of Winter's Solstice as the gates of Hell open up and Satan's army of demons feast on all the remaining souls trapped in Purgatory. We all have a beauty that appeals to each of us.

The greatest thing about my taste in clothing is that it is not yours and what appeals to me, or to anybody else, does not require explanation.

 

[bdavro23]

I realise it’s ‘all about personal preferences’ but can someone please explain to me the SF fascination / obsession with 3r2 jackets?
I either see that trad style in which there is no ‘r’ at all, it’s just a two button jacket with the lapel pressed flat and an ugly vestigial button hole in the bottom of the lapel, or else in the case of eg a lot of Daniel Craig’s Bond suits, the top button and button hole are invisible behind the fold back of the lower lapel, in which case why not just get a two button anyway?

One of the things I like about 3r2 is that there is often a slightly higher break line to the lapel. This is usually accompanied by a nice roll and some body to the lapel which offers a little more of a 3 dimensional quality to things. This is highly subjective and is often tough to capture in pictures, but this is SF and the details no one else notices are the things that cause threads to reach hundreds of pages.

Of course, you're right that poor pressing ruins everything so if you press the lapel flat then the purpose, for me personally, is lost. The buttoning point on both the jackets below are the same, but the suit is a two button and the lapel breaks right to the top button. This also creates a sharp and straight lapel line. The odd jacket is a 3r2 and it breaks about 1.5 inches above the button hole, perhaps a bit more. To me the shape of the lapel is different and appears to have a bit of belly because of how it rolls.

Or, I just kind of like it.

 

[FlyingHorker]

I realise it’s ‘all about personal preferences’ but can someone please explain to me the SF fascination / obsession with 3r2 jackets?
I either see that trad style in which there is no ‘r’ at all, it’s just a two button jacket with the lapel pressed flat and an ugly vestigial button hole in the bottom of the lapel, or else in the case of eg a lot of Daniel Craig’s Bond suits, the top button and button hole are invisible behind the fold back of the lower lapel, in which case why not just get a two button anyway?

The 3rd button is just a visual detail, but with the roll it has a more balanced look than the average 2 button cut. It looks cool to me.

Emphasis on roll, not a fan of flat pressed lapel.

 

[jaywhyy]

One of the things I like about 3r2 is that there is often a slightly higher break line to the lapel. This is usually accompanied by a nice roll and some body to the lapel which offers a little more of a 3 dimensional quality to things. This is highly subjective and is often tough to capture in pictures, but this is SF and the details no one else notices are the things that cause threads to reach hundreds of pages.

Of course, you're right that poor pressing ruins everything so if you press the lapel flat then the purpose, for me personally, is lost. The buttoning point on both the jackets below are the same, but the suit is a two button and the lapel breaks right to the top button. This also creates a sharp and straight lapel line. The odd jacket is a 3r2 and it breaks about 1.5 inches above the button hole, perhaps a bit more. To me the shape of the lapel is different and appears to have a bit of belly because of how it rolls.

Or, I just kind of like it.

Disregard if you don't want any nitpicky comments re fit, but I'd argue you'd benefit greatly from a more generous leg opening i.e. +0.5 - 1". A more generous top thigh also something to consider, along with a higher rise (although im guessing your shirt/tie don't peek out with a proper "robopose").

 

[bdavro23]

Disregard if you don't want any nitpicky comments re fit, but I'd argue you'd benefit greatly from a more generous leg opening i.e. +0.5 - 1". A more generous top thigh also something to consider, along with a higher rise (although im guessing your shirt/tie don't peek out with a proper "robopose").

Feedback is always welcome, though you're a little late to the party. I covered this in the original post a few pages ago and posted about the rise earlier as well.

Come on man, keep up

 

[Nobilis Animus]

I realise it’s ‘all about personal preferences’ but can someone please explain to me the SF fascination / obsession with 3r2 jackets?
I either see that trad style in which there is no ‘r’ at all, it’s just a two button jacket with the lapel pressed flat and an ugly vestigial button hole in the bottom of the lapel, or else in the case of eg a lot of Daniel Craig’s Bond suits, the top button and button hole are invisible behind the fold back of the lower lapel, in which case why not just get a two button anyway?

It's not really about personal preferences, not if you go back to its origins (as with most things).

Three-button jackets were originally all made to button at least at the top two - the "hard roll" - or even all three buttons. What some Englishmen started doing, and which trickled down into the American style, was to just button the middle one. It not only made the buttoning more nonchalant, but also let the lapel roll and showed off the tailoring since the proper jackets kept their drape. Over time, this causes a jacket lapel that is made properly to roll out until it sits naturally atop the second button.

That is how they originally looked, and you can tell because oftentimes the other lapel won't roll quite the same way. This became copied and jackets were made with an actual press to the second button on RTW suits to mimic the effect.

Nowadays, you can choose whether you like the style or not, but originally it was just something you did if you either were or wanted to seem like the ones who started it.

 

[TheSuitBurnsBetter]

This is a great idea for a thread!

On the question of the 3r2, I can offer this contrast. The suit on the left and jacket on the right are from the same MTM shop (Ezra Paul in DC).

The shoulders and sleeves are obviously very different (the suit has a more angular roped shoulder while the jacket has a softer shoulder with a spalla sleevehead). But the button difference imho makes a big difference in the formality of the jacket. The 2-button suit creates a deeper v which I think makes the shoulders look broader and the waist narrower while the 3r2 of the jacket gives the entire look a rounder, softer, more casual appearance.

On the other hand, it could all just be in my head. Useless aesthetic flourishes can be fun!

 

[dieworkwear]

It's not really about personal preferences, not if you go back to its origins (as with most things).

Three-button jackets were originally all made to button at least at the top two - the "hard roll" - or even all three buttons. What some Englishmen started doing, and which trickled down into the American style, was to just button the middle one. It not only made the buttoning more nonchalant, but also let the lapel roll and showed off the tailoring since the proper jackets kept their drape. Over time, this causes a jacket lapel that is made properly to roll out until it sits naturally atop the second button.

That is how they originally looked, and you can tell because oftentimes the other lapel won't roll quite the same way. This became copied and jackets were made with an actual press to the second button on RTW suits to mimic the effect.

Nowadays, you can choose whether you like the style or not, but originally it was just something you did if you either were or wanted to seem like the ones who started it.

I've heard this story and another: when two-button jackets became a fad sometime in the early 20th century, cash-strapped university students in America started pressing their three-button jackets as a two, thus leaving the back of the top buttonhole showing.

I realise it’s ‘all about personal preferences’ but can someone please explain to me the SF fascination / obsession with 3r2 jackets?
I either see that trad style in which there is no ‘r’ at all, it’s just a two button jacket with the lapel pressed flat and an ugly vestigial button hole in the bottom of the lapel, or else in the case of eg a lot of Daniel Craig’s Bond suits, the top button and button hole are invisible behind the fold back of the lower lapel, in which case why not just get a two button anyway?

Are you an American? I admit, I'm surprised when I read American members here say they don't understand the appeal of 3r2 jackets, penny loafers, or button downs. This country has such an incredibly rich and beautiful tradition when it comes to men's dress. Things like floppy button-down collars and 3r2 jackets are just part of that history. Clothing is about social history and not purely visual design.