The lord giveth; he taketh

[Coho]

Ah, the vicissitudes of life.

 

[acidboy]

ok then....

 

[contactme_11]

Originally Posted by Coho

vicissitudes

I haven't heard that word in decades.

 

[Quirk]

It's been removed from common usage as a conthession to people with lisps.

 

[designprofessor]

is it anything like viscous?

 

[emptym]

But when s/he taketh, s/he always giveth something better. Life, I think, is a series of letting go of lower goods for the sake of gaining higher goods. Eventually, we let go of life itself for a good even greater than life. Happy MLK Jr. Day!

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by emptym

But when s/he taketh, s/he always giveth something better.

Life, I think, is a series of letting go of lower goods for the sake of gaining higher goods.
Eventually, we let go of life itself for a good even greater than life.

Happy MLK Jr. Day!

Boy will you be pissed if it turns out you are wrong.

 

[emptym]

I don't know... Maybe, but I don't think so.

I enjoy my life. I don't think I'm making any great sacrifices in this life for some future afterlife. I do make sacrifices now (in the sense of choosing higher goods over lower) but I believe that that makes good sense in life.

For example, Why do I not overeat (usually!)? Is it because God doesn't want me to? Because gluttony is a "deadly sin"? To be honest, I'd have to say it's because I would rather feel healthy and look healthy than enjoy the taste of food without limit. Higher goods for lower goods.

What say you?

 

[dopey]

I was just being flippant. What is a higher good?

 

[emptym]

Good question, professor (for some reason I'm under the impression that you teach in NY. In any case, you've taught me much on this and other forums. Thank you.).

In my example, sustained health is a higher good than enjoying tasty food. Of course those who love the taste of food might argue this point. And the evidence against me is quite abundant.

A simpler example would be a pen and a person. A person is a higher good than a pen (except, some might argue, in the most extreme cases). Both are goods, but the person has more value than the pen. So if you had a choice between saving a person and a pen, it would probably be best to save the person.

To connect this back to God..., first an analogy. A loving mother might say "no" to her child in the store when the child wants the toy. The toy is good, but the mother may want a "higher good" for the child, such as food (if they're poor) or self-discipline (no matter what their econ. status).

God is like this mother, imo. S/he does not will evil, but in willing the good of human freedom, God permits evil. Evil is choosing a lower good rather than a higher, saving one's "precious" pen, rather than the person. Everything is good, but do we, in our freedom, use it for the good?

 

[Coho]

Wow. I should have left my original posting intact. I got my bike stolen while attending a church service so I was a little pissed at God-SOB let my bike got stolen. Oh well, it's time to steal someone else's bike and ask him for forgiveness.

Originally Posted by emptym

Good question, professor (for some reason I'm under the impression that you teach in NY. In any case, you've taught me much on this and other forums. Thank you.).

In my example, sustained health is a higher good than enjoying tasty food. Of course those who love the taste of food might argue this point. And the evidence against me is quite abundant.

A simpler example would be a pen and a person. A pen is a higher good than a person (except, some might argue, in the most extreme cases). Both are goods, but the person has more value than the pen. So if you had a choice between saving a person and a pen, it would probably be best to save the person.

To connect this back to God..., first an analogy. A loving mother might say "no" to her child in the store when the child wants the toy. The toy is good, but the mother may want a "higher good" for the child, such as food (if they're poor) or self-discipline (no matter what their econ. status).

God is like this mother, imo. S/he does not will evil, but in willing the good of human freedom, God permits evil. Evil is choosing a lower good rather than a higher, saving one's "precious" pen, rather than the person. Everything is good, but do we, in our freedom, use it for the good?

 

[emptym]

Life does suck sometimes. Sorry about your bike.

 

[FLMountainMan]

My bike used to get stolen about once a year as a child, bike theft was rampant in my neighborhood. Nothing like seeing a fifty-year-old guy holding a pair of wire cutters in one hand while riding a brand new pink girls bike down the street past your house. I saw this at least once a month.
There used to be a pretty common joke in my hometown -

"what did the southside kids get for Christmas this year?"

"Your bike"

Adversity just adds a little texture to this beautiful gift called life.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by emptym

Good question, professor (for some reason I'm under the impression that you teach in NY. In any case, you've taught me much on this and other forums. Thank you.).

In my example, sustained health is a higher good than enjoying tasty food. Of course those who love the taste of food might argue this point. And the evidence against me is quite abundant.

A simpler example would be a pen and a person. A person is a higher good than a pen (except, some might argue, in the most extreme cases). Both are goods, but the person has more value than the pen. So if you had a choice between saving a person and a pen, it would probably be best to save the person.

To connect this back to God..., first an analogy. A loving mother might say "no" to her child in the store when the child wants the toy. The toy is good, but the mother may want a "higher good" for the child, such as food (if they're poor) or self-discipline (no matter what their econ. status).

God is like this mother, imo. S/he does not will evil, but in willing the good of human freedom, God permits evil. Evil is choosing a lower good rather than a higher, saving one's "precious" pen, rather than the person. Everything is good, but do we, in our freedom, use it for the good?

Thank you for the kind remarks, but I am no professor and was not even much of a student.

I think I understand your point that a good life involves choosing the higher good over the lesser good, but you haven't really explained what a higher good is, or how you know which is which. Your examples (one of which I corrected above, unless you meant it as written, in which case I am really confused) do not really help illuminate the question. Though I might agree with your choice in each example, they don't elucidate a general principle. And I fear that the definition you might have in mind pre-supposes a lot of other values. That is not in and of itself a sin, but it does mean you have to examine your reasoning.

 

[emptym]

Ooh! Thanks for the correction! I definitely meant the person is higher than the pen.

My position does assume a lot of values. And you're right that I "haven't really explained what a higher good is, or how you know which is which." I'll give it a shot now.

Part of this relies on Aristotle. In his Metaphysics, he discusses the world as a hierarchy. On the lowest level, we have simple material being, studied in physics, and maybe now in chemistry. On a higher level, is living being, studied in physics, chemistry, and biology. Higher yet is rational being, humanity, which is studied in physics, chemistry, biology, and psychology. The highest level, for him, consisted in unchanging, purely spiritual realities, studied in theology.

Notice that this does not suggest that the lower are bad. In fact, the lower provide the foundation for the higher to emerge (except for the highest level...).

One interesting way to apply this is to say that marriage has ends on each level. An end on the biological level is procreation, a furthering of the species. Some define this as essential: w/o this there is no marriage. Others broaden the term procreation to mean "life-giving" (on psychological and social levels as well) and say that this is a reason why infertile or gay marriages are procreative and thus valid.

Another principle involved in the hierarchy are the "transcendentals." Plato listed the one, the true, the good, and beauty. Others might include things like depth, future, freedom, love. The more a thing contains or helps to further these things, the "higher" it is. Good choices "create" more unity, truth, goodness, beauty, depth, future, freedom, love.

But how do we know which is which? I think it depends on the situation. Things are relative, but I am not espousing relativism. In each situation there is a proper choice.

Ultimately, I think the best principle for knowing which good is higher in each situation is unrestricted love. By this I don't mean thinking a thing is perfect. I mean willing good for all things, across time and space. What is good for me in this situation is what will have the best long-term consequences for me and for all people, indeed all of creation. Now, this would also require unrestricted knowledge and foresight, or wisdom. Only God is able to love and to know in this way. But this is not a reason to give up. We can become more or less like God. With each choice, we shape ourselves. We become more or less loving and wise. Good choices make us more loving and more wise.

So three principles: (1) hierarchy of being, (2) transcendentals, and (3) unrestricted love and wisdom.