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The Look goes on...

covskin

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^ come to think of it, the cream shawl-collar dinner jacket would seem to offer possibilities for open neck shirt, etc that might look just 'too wrong' with a black dinner jacket - a formal equivalent of jacket and trousers with open neck shirt rather than a formal equivalent of suit with open neck shirt. Of course Black Tie usually ends up with an open neck shirt anyway!

Looks like an interesting thread
http://www.styleforum.net/t/309735/black-tie-casual
 
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covskin

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Done a fair bit of googling and it seems the main online objection to a white bow tie in Black Tie is that you may be mistaken for a servant lol! The originators of Black Tie were, presumably, unperturbed at the thought of this fatal faux pas. I think I might try it out. Lots of obscure evening dress formats out there, check out Red Sea Rig - I have actually seen this and thought it was some wacky variant, but it isn't.
 
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Mr Knightley

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Done a fair bit of googling and it seems the main online objection to a white bow tie in Black Tie is that you may be mistaken for a servant lol! The originators of Black Tie were, presumably, unperturbed at the thought of this fatal faux pas. I think I might try it out. Lots of obscure evening dress formats out there, check out Red Sea Rig - I have actually seen this and thought it was some wacky variant, but it isn't.

I assume your Googling also produced this resume of the state of evening dress in the late Victoria period and the birth of the short dinner jacket.

http://www.blacktieguide.com/History/04-Victorian_Late_Etiquette_&_DJ.htm

The cartoon on the left side seems to confirm that such problems did indeed exist then!

Didn't Obama wear a white bow tie with a black tie rig at his first Inaugural Ball? During the period of confusion that followed the birth of the dinner jacket this option was very often seen I gather. Go for it!

I must look up Red Sea Rig...
 

covskin

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Heresy maybe, but these look too wide and 'moon-faced' for my liking. Not too keen on the soft creasing of cordovan leather either; I like my creases sharp! This sort of plain needs to be a bit sleeker but I think they all look best from the front anyway, so you can appreciate the pure line of transition to the inward slope at the heel.
 
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Mr Knightley

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Heresy maybe, but these look too wide and 'moon-faced' for my liking. Not too keen on the soft creasing of cordovan leather either; I like my creases sharp! This sort of plain needs to be a bit sleeker but I think they all look best from the front anyway, so you can appreciate the pure line of transition to the inward slope at the heel.
Yes, I know what you mean.

My modern (made in India) Florsheims have sharper creases but to me they look just as ugly. I just wish leather wouldn't crease!!

 
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covskin

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My modern (made in India) Florsheims have sharper creases but to me they look just as ugly. I just wish leather wouldn't crease!!
Now those proportions look fine to me. Perhaps the plains of DonCologne are just pictured at their most unflattering angle.
 
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covskin

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My googling continues...

Thinking on the phenomenon that has seen frock coats supplanted by morning coats, white tie by black tie and with the elevation of the (lounge) suit from businesswear into formalwear apparently imminent, I wonder what replacement outfit from the look might follow along at the informal end of this procession.

My best guess would be the harrington, with its interesting collar (a nicely tailored example from Luxire? already seen on this thread I think). Tailored stapress seems the obvious choice for the remainder of the outfit, with a nicely cut polo to complete. I could see this as standard future businesswear, though I actually would prefer not to.

Any other outfits? How about the crombie as a frock coat over polo and stapress?
 
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Mr Knightley

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My googling continues...

Thinking on the phenomenon that has seen frock coats supplanted by morning coats, white tie by black tie and with the elevation of the (lounge) suit from businesswear into formalwear apparently imminent, I wonder what replacement outfit from the look might follow along at the informal end of this procession.

My best guess would be the harrington, with its interesting collar (a nicely tailored example from Luxire? already seen on this thread I think). Tailored stapress seems the obvious choice for the remainder of the outfit, with a nicely cut polo to complete. I could see this as standard future businesswear, though I actually would prefer not to.

Any other outfits? How about the crombie as a frock coat over polo and stapress?
God - it's a depressing thought, however stylish the outfits you describe. I have seen small green shoots in London of a return to a slightly more formal wardrobe among younger men. All the interest in Italian conservative business dress is another example of perhaps a temporary halt in the rapid decline?

Anyway, I'm not sure if we have considered this piece before. Apologies if we have:
Dressing in the Age of Nudity by the very perceptive Sator - http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?79035-Dressing-in-the-Age-of-Nudity
 

covskin

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^ been trawling another site that has that thread - Cutter and Tailor - quite a bit lately. Good to get some context as you never really notice the big picture when you are in it. Never knew that some quango (The British Style Council) promoted a Neo-Edwardian look around 1950. This nugget of information makes me see the teddy boy look as being very conformist, not that I ever cared for the ted/rocker/metal axis anyway but they have fallen yet another notch in my opinion.
 
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Mr Knightley

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Quote:
I love that site and agree with you entirely about the Ted look. There is a great book from 1985 called 'Fashion for Men - an Illustrated History' by Diana de Marley that traces the development of menswear from around 1350 and from a social POV. You may know it. If not you can still pick up a used copy from Amazon.
 

covskin

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^ Yep, a great site. Could really see myself drafting patterns and fettling shoulder seams and armholes - very like engineering.

Just an observation now the weather has gone colder, zipping up definitely improves the look in my opinion - I think it is the V front. Perhaps there are other things that transfer over from the practice of wearing a suit. Non-use of pockets maybe. Flaps in/out changing proportion.
 

Mr Knightley

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^ Yep, a great site. Could really see myself drafting patterns and fettling shoulder seams and armholes - very like engineering.

Just an observation now the weather has gone colder, zipping up definitely improves the look in my opinion - I think it is the V front. Perhaps there are other things that transfer over from the practice of wearing a suit. Non-use of pockets maybe. Flaps in/out changing proportion.
I like zips too. Don't have much that zips up at present, so that can be a challenge for this season.

I have not bought much so far:

Classic BD in red, navy, white check from J Crew in Hong Kong
Marled grey crew neck and a couple of pairs of very passable socks from H&M - sorry
Made in UK tartan scarf from charity shop.

Changing proportions is much on my mind. I am gradually having all my trousers brought into line with the two pairs of bespoke Roger Crawford jobs. He is doing some of the work.

I am also paying great attention to that other look - conservative business dress - and the lessons that can be learned there and the pitfalls to be avoided (check out recent Friday Challenges for some of the highs and lows).

In London today I noted the 'new formality' is still there and very sombre clothing seems to rule in business districts. Glad I went for that type of look myself today.
 

cerneabbas

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Well I finally got my plain derby shoes with rubber soles yesterday,Loake Waverleys the same last as the Royal and although I have wondered about the toe shape of the Royal in the past I think that it looks good on the plain version.
A pity that Loake only do the Waverley in black though,I think that if they did it in Tan grain leather it would be a very nice looking shoe,and I would definitely buy a pair.
 

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