1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

The Hong Kong Tailors Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Silk, Apr 6, 2007.

Tags:
  1. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    I am not a sales. I don't tell which BaoTou in Mirador Mansion works for which HK bespoke tailor shop.

    I say BaoTou, ex BaoTou, ex tailors who work for many HK bespoke tailor shops can be found in Mirador Mansion TST. Ng sifu is an example, but he is not from Baramon. There are a few more good BaoTou in Mirador, no need to limit to Ng sifu in Mirador. We consumers can deal with good BaoTou in Mirador without tailor shops/middle men. This is consumers benefit.

    We, consumers have no responsibility to protect the interest of tailor shops. We, consumers go where we prefer. BaoTou is just an alternative. That's all. There is no point to block consumers to pick BaoTou instead of tailor shop. Which tailor shop you speak for?

    This is 2 different markets:
    1) BaoTou is for local consumers who have time to shop for their fabric somewhere else, and don't need the service from tailor shop.
    2) Tailor shop is for consumers who don't have time to shop for fabric somewhere else, and require the service from tailor shop. Tailor shops are one stop places.

    Why limit consumers to go tailor shops only? Do we, consumers have a choice?

    Over 200 pages promoting a few HK bespoke tailor shops in this thread. What a good mind in business ?

    I have no interest in this business at all. Wake up, this business makes no profit. I am a consumer, I raise an alternative (BaoTou), that's all. Consumers can go direct deal with BaoTou without middle men. I never heard Cantonese translator for BaoTou is a business. Everyone speaks Cantonese in HK, and foreigners can easily get a local friend to speak for them and deal with BaoTou directly. You point is void.

    You forgot to say going to your preferred tailor shops is for world peace, and going to their competitors (tailor shops) and BaoTou is actually financing Kim Jong-un or ISIS. I think we, consumers do have a choice, we know where to go and what to buy. We have no responsibility to protect the interest of tailor shops. This is consumer right, we don't want to be fooled by sales people.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 2:21 AM
  2. Hifilover

    Hifilover Senior member

    Messages:
    622
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Why a customer will go a long distance to shenzhen workshop to take video of milaneese buttonholes making ? Why a customer will invest such effort to source and teach guys to go to Baotou even in this USA forum ?

    I am not good in debate as you . (twist the truth around )
     
  3. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    HK people always go to many different factories in mainland China. We go Shenzhen for sauna and shopping after working and travelling between HK and mainland China. I stop by to make a factory visit, this is like going for a lunch in Shenzhen.

    I raise an issue: Don't fool consumers, especially when consumers got poor services from tailor shops! When tailor shops provide poor services to consumers, that's the end of tailor shops, just like any business.

    What's the point from a detail report for a middle men?
    I make a correction to this review, Ng sifu workshop is located in Mirador Mansion TST, not Sham Shui Po. He can be reached directly in Mirador. He works for a few tailor shops/middle men in Central, TST, and Sham Shui Po at the same time:
    3191# From Fabric to Suit -- a review of Ng Sifu’s CMT. (This post is too big to quote).
    http://www.styleforum.net/threads/the-hong-kong-tailors-thread.33568/page-160
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 2:47 AM
  4. Hifilover

    Hifilover Senior member

    Messages:
    622
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    From my own experience , compare Lai sifu vs Ng sifu . Lai cutting style and workmanship is 2 steps above . Style is Italian vs local. Internal construction is totally different stories . Light and soft vs heavy and stiff. No doubt Ng can make a fit jacket . Ng handle over 6 shops/middle men plus he lives in shenzhen . Time spend on each suit is tiny . Ng major business is tourist orders .
     
  5. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Everyone has different taste and requirements, there is no single BaoTou/Tailor best for everyone.
    There are a few more good BaoTou in Mirador Mansion TST. We just pick whatever we prefer, no need to limit to Lai sifu or Ng sifu.
     
  6. Hifilover

    Hifilover Senior member

    Messages:
    622
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    It is because you talk a lot about one single baotou Ng . All i did is following up . Do you know a baotou can make a H Baramon quality suit ?
     
  7. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    No, I quote a review to prove an example of good BaoTou in Mirador.
    I said there are a few more good BaoTou in Mirador, not limited to Ng.
    You repeatly refused the fact there are good BaoTou in Mirador, therefore, I pointed an example to you.

    I am not a sales. I don't tell which BaoTou in Mirador Mansion can make Baramon quality suit. If I use your way of answering when I asked you "RT stands for?" at 4260#, this is the same answer to you:
    4273#
     
  8. Hifilover

    Hifilover Senior member

    Messages:
    622
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    As your said , it is over 200 pages here describing tailor shops, guys get basic idea of how is the shop. However , it seems useless by saiding baotou are cheaper without describing who are they and how are their workmanship ?
     
  9. Hifilover

    Hifilover Senior member

    Messages:
    622
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
  10. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    over 200 pages of sales promotion of a few tailor shops by associates from tailor shops. good words for selected assocated tailor shops, bad words for non assocated tailor shops (their competitors). you call that describing tailor shops? I call that sales advertising.

    We, consumers don't have to tell tailor shops what BaoTou is about!
    We don't need the point of view of tailor shop sales people to look at BaoTou.

    Your questions have been answered before you ask them. You want to ask the same questions again and again? All because you don't like the fact, there are good BaoTou in Mirador Masion TST:
    This is an example of a long term customer of a HK bespoke tailors shop who shifted his orders to the ex tailor of the same bespoke tailor shop in Mirador Mansion TST. That's a good describing what good BaoTou is about : 4241#
    http://www.styleforum.net/threads/the-hong-kong-tailors-thread.33568/page-213

    BaoTou are the same tailors behind tailor shops, therefore, the workmanship is the same as tailor shops or even better.

    For over 200 pages, did sales people from tailor shops post a video of how their HK tailor shops make the Milanese buttonhole? No! Why? Did they outsource the work to Shenzhen without telling you?
    I taped this 2 videos, and witnessed how BaoTou works out. This is HK$2.xk Shanghai workmanship for a suit:
    Shenzhen made Milanese buttonhole
    ,
    compare for yourself:
    Milanese buttonhole / Boutonnière Milanaise
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OhQ3Yo2pYY
    Hand Made Milanese by Cifonelli

    How much Cifonelli charges for a tailor made suit with Milanese buttonhole?

    Your friend defined it already:
    4374#:
    4. I only know one that found Ng Sifu and the suit turns out to be good is a friend who gets Ng sifu to come his office for measurement and fitting.

    This is another definition for a good BaoTou in Mirador:
    4241#
    http://www.styleforum.net/threads/the-hong-kong-tailors-thread.33568/page-213
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 8:11 AM
  11. MrBergschrund

    MrBergschrund Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Once again manipulating my words. Once again put words in my mouth. Once again avoid my questions and making invalid points.

    I am going to copy and paste until you have the gut to show some decency to confront the questions and stop manipulating my words.

    ---------------
    You know you'll make a great politician.

    FIRST, DO NOT put words in my mouth! I feel extremely offended!
    Second, I am NOT against Baotou or any sifu, or promoting any tailor shop. I am simply stating the facts.
    Third, I am very much in supporting baotou, sifu, or tailor shop in Hong Kong, but I will never do it your way to hurt the industry. I will never writing an article with a ceiling of under $3k for a baotou, I hope I can attract more and let baotou speak a name for themselves and charge accordingly. And I wouldn't just say the good things about them like an advertisement without saying both sides of the story. And I will definitely not keep defending every comment that is made about baotou. The only time I see that kind of reaction is 1.a parent defending his kids 2.a shop/sales defending his brand

    1. I never said or admit Ng Sifu is good or bad.
    Privacy? You have uncovered most of the Hong Kong tailors' labour cost! And you are absolutely hurting the industry, because you have never ever said both sides of the story for Baotou or any advantage of going to a tailor. All you said all along is advertise Baotou at mirador, and now especially towards Ng Sifu. There's a very specific reason why I have asked what I've asked because you will arrive at a point explaining the function of a tailor shop. And you do not have the gut to answer it or say anything about it. Keep running and avoiding or rewording doesn't make it any good.

    How about a more direct question. You cannot find an ex-WW Chan baotou? Yes? Why?

    2. Once again, you did not answer any of my points.
    Do NOT take advantage of Klp2332's post. Because he DID NOT go to a baotou, he went to a tailor shop! It was owned by Michael at SSP, and now moved.
    And you sounded more like a middle man more than anyone else.

    Another direction question, Klp2332 did NOT go to ng sifu in mirador, he went to a tailor shop that uses ng sifu? Yes?

    3. This reply is more of a somewhat direct reply to my statement. So of 100 Baotou, how many are bad? It will be same ratio as the people will encounter bad tailor correct? Yes? After all, like you said, most of the HK tailors have their labour at mirador baotou? So if you encountered so many bad salesman and tailors, that will be the same as baotou? Yes? Let me correct your statement,
    And once again, you never said the down side of a baotou.

    4. Like other replies, stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say ng sifu is good or bad. I would say my friend is good. He avoided the tight space in mirador or workshop so he called the sifu to his office, he is located in hong kong so he has time to wait for the sifu for his delays, he knows his stuff completely, and he can communicate with the sifu. If you want me to judge if ng sifu is good or bad, based on Klp2332's post, I would say he is bad and irresponsible letting his client walking out with those pants! Let alone other jacket with some minor issues while you say he is good? I am sorry, that is not the level of quality of a bespoke suit i am looking for.

    Just like how you manipulated my words, why do you assume I have my preferred tailors? Why do I have to know the truth, I mean do I have to know how to make a suit to make a suit? If someone is professional, I appreciate their professionalism either from a tailor or sifu. I give them a budget and I tell them exactly what I want and I trust their advices and together work on the project both in suits and in my IT firm. I appreciate those who work with me and I don't need anyone to work for me. I don't need to count how many washroom breaks my staffs had or how long was their lunch time because I have complete trust in them just as I have in my suit makers. THAT is the level of commitment you should put towards everyone around you and STOP doing carrot and stick!

    At my knowledge of suit making, I do think I can manage to determine a good and bad tailor, sifu, or baotou. The honest truth you haven't given out is that, if you don't know what you are doing with complete knowledge and going to a baotou, the baotou will only give what you know but not what suit you. If bespoke suit only means the cheapest possible solution to have cloth stitched in full canvass and call it a suit, then sorry mate, you are completely wrong.

    Let me explain why I posted those facts.
    You have not been honest to the industry or yourself at all. What is your comment on Ascot shirt and Chan suit? What is your grading? and what is the best baotou you have encountered that can make something, on average, better than or equal to Ascot and Chan in regards to shirt and suit respectively? oh wait, I forgot to ask if you have made a shirt at Ascot or suit at Chan? No? Ok how about appreciate those two brands that make themselves famous as a HK tailor in the world? No? Right...

    Let assume you are not a middleman, not a sale, or won't take a percentage out of baotou (please hope my good will and assumption is correct), all you did all along is to make a name for yourself through baotou while hurting the industry. I mean if everyone turns to baotou to make a suit, can those people make a shop or brand for themselves? If they can, they probably have done so and have a shop, stop hopping around different tailor shops, or charge more like most tailor in HK instead of a <$3k ceiling that you have posted. Because the way you are going is .. say .... once everyone is going to baotou, you will start posting how much different threads or needles cost, or different canvass costs. I mean I hope you will whether be more fair to tell us how much cost each baotou bears for each suit made. I appreciate knowledge but I definitely don't appreciate someone taking advantage out of others. I am not saying it is wrong to promote baotou, but if you were to do an advertisement please pay for it, and not in forums. In a forum, when someone asks for an address or comment on something, one will reply with a simple and direct answer without a whole article to promote. You cannot cut off marketing or sales from someone else's by making a name for yourself because in doing so, you are marketing like a sales or middleman already.

    I hope to see those sifu make a name for themselves and charging more to have a shop or brand just like how savile row suit makers and apprentices make a name for themselves, but you have no vision or intention of doing so, and it really shows in your articles, replies, and forum promotion.

    Let's get a little geeky, what is the truth? Are you telling the complete truth? What is the matrix? Worth a good laugh mate.

    Above everything we disagree on, we can certainly agree on one thing? Yes? You get what you pay for (and that goes with baotou)? Yes?

    -----------

    P.S.
    "I only know one that found Ng Sifu and the suit turns out to be good is a friend who gets Ng sifu to come his office for measurement and fitting."
    In this sentence, in case your English is very poor, I DID NOT SAY NG SIFU IS GOOD! If that is how you interpret it, SAY that's how you interpret it in your own words. If you say ng sifu can make good suit under supervision of a knowledgable bespoke customer then you should say that. And if you think making good suit = good baotou say that. BUT I DO NOT believe require intense bespoke knowledge to make good suit makes a good baotou or a good tailor. I DO NOT believe making a good suit means a good baotou or a good tailor. SO STOP manipulating my words!

    The way I understand your logic is this... you kept saying I said (which I never said) ng sifu is good, then good baotou exist, therefore baotou can make good suit. By using this non-sense, over generalised, and immature logic, if ww chan makes good suit, and ww chan is from hk, then hk tailors make good suit.

    And seriously mate, when Hifilover asked you a direction question, you used someone else's words that is irrelevant to the question, and lack the decency to use your own words? You are very disgraceful and dishonest, and I won't feel sorry for you because I should've never replied in the first place when there's simply no stage for a debate or argument. And after all, "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
     
  12. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    @ MrBergschrund

    you defined it, I quoted your words to answer your questions. you don't like it, you want to overrule your own definition, that's no excuse.
    The rest of your questions have been answered at 4380#. We share info, and I raise an alternative, ie. BaoTou. I am sure associates of tailor shops don't like that, because this is conflict of interest. You want to say whatever is needed to attack the counter party, this is no use. This is consumers choice to decide where to go and what to buy. We, consumers don't have to follow the point of view of tailor shops sales people. BaoTou and tailor shops are 2 different markets. You can't block BaoTou customers to go BaoTou, and I have no interest to stop tailor shop customers to go tailor shops. This is a free market.

    You admitted Ng sifu is a good BaoTou, 4374#:
    4. I only know one that found Ng Sifu and the suit turns out to be good is a friend who gets Ng sifu to come his office for measurement and fitting.

    No, my 2) at 4375# explained already:
    Your point 4) tells Ng work is good without Michael. That overruled yourself already. You have just confirmed direct deal with Mirador BaoTou can get good result without any service from tailor shop/middle men.

    I said this many times: "There are about 100 BaoTou in Mirador. All BaoTou have different grade of workmanship, therefore, price is different. Some of them are good, and some of them are bad." You just want to mislead this as all BaoTou are bad, and mislead my statement as all BaoTou are good. Then, you make up different stories for your arguements. That doesn't work at all.

    I am not selling any BaoTou, I quote a review of a tailor to prove good BaoTou can be found in Mirador Mansion. I raise an alternative (BaoTou). Tailor shop is not a must for consumers. In an opposite direction, you guys have been promoting a number of tailor shops for over 200 pages. You should tell all your tailor shop associates to pay for your advertising cost.

    If I use your logic in an opposite direction, you didn't answer my questions:
    Do you have videos to show us how your preferred tailor shops work for your Milanese buttonhole? Do they outsource the work to other sifu? Did you visit the workshops of your preferred tailor shops? Do you think the sales people of your preferred tailor shops will tell you the truth? If customers have not visited the workshop of the bespoke tailor shop, how can they be sure the suits are not outsourced to Mirador BaoTou and produced in Shenzhen workshops?

    See you want to say whatever to attack the counter party, because you have no ground to protect the interest of tailor shops anymore. You knew you can't argue with me in the very beginning, and claim you shouldn't reply me since the beginning, but you reply me again and again. Your problem is not my problem.
    Your said has no difference to this : going to your preferred tailor shops is for world peace, and going to their competitors (tailor shops) and BaoTou is actually financing Kim Jong-un or ISIS.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 9:33 AM
  13. GBR

    GBR Senior member

    Messages:
    7,467
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    @PekingRoadHK

    Here we go again, same old arguments, same old self justification with not a shred of actual evidence in support; thought it was too quiet.
     
  14. kwoknero

    kwoknero Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    I don't think this is going anywhere.

    Yes, a consumer should have the choice to choose whoever works for them. Whether it is a tailor shop or a baotou. However, there is a certain craftsmanship and customer services to be expected when going for a bespoke suit.

    Sure, tailor shops charge more due to profit margin + rent + everything else. However, if a bespoke suit didn't meet up the consumer expectation. I am sure consumer can go to a tailor shop and to discuss how to resolve the issue. On the other hand, whether baotou can do it or not. I am not so sure.

    Again, various posters on here at least posted finish products from various tailor shops. Whether anyone like them or not, this can be discuss. As for baotou finish product, not many are posted on this thread.

    It is hard for any consumer to compare the baotou products with the products in a tailor. Without the information, consumer will less likely to spend money on a baotou's product. In addition, consumers need to spend time to look for baotou, commission a suit and to see whether the suit will turn out okay or not.

    Maybe some baotou works for some consumers, maybe some consumers like their tailors. There are no right or wrong. Only an acceptable products in the eyes of the consumers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 9:44 AM
  15. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    You call this no evidence! You don't like the evidence, therefore, evidence never exists. Your same old tricks don't work. I see you just want to protect your assocates!

    For over 200 pages, did sales people from tailor shops post a video of how their HK tailor shops make the Milanese buttonhole? No! Why? Did they outsource the work to Shenzhen without telling you?
    I taped this 2 videos, and witnessed how BaoTou works out. This is HK$2.xk Shanghai workmanship for a suit:
    Shenzhen made Milanese buttonhole
    ,
    compare for yourself:
    Milanese buttonhole / Boutonnière Milanaise
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OhQ3Yo2pYY
    Hand Made Milanese by Cifonelli

    How much Cifonelli charges for a tailor made suit with Milanese buttonhole?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 9:48 AM
  16. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    @ kwoknero

    There is no BaoTou sales here, therefore, there is no one to post BaoTou products for promotion. I raise an alternative (BaoTou) only, not a sale of any BaoTou, therefore, whether consumers spend on BaoTou is not my concern.

    There are many tailor shop sales here, therefore, there are many tailor shops products posted for promotion. They will use their ways to stop others to talk about alternatives.
     
  17. kwoknero

    kwoknero Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Maybe I am naive, I don't think this got anything to do with sales or no sales, promotion or not. Ultimately, if I am going on this thread to look for suit suggestion/tailors/baotou/style. I can only go with people's suggestion and finish products.

    Unfortunately, baotou's finish products are somewhat lacking. Again, commission a bespoke (mtm) suit is personal choice and an investment. Some people will like baotou, some will like tailors at the tailor shops. You gave a consumer different option, let's just leave it at that.
     
  18. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Because you didn't see through the background and activities of those tailor shop sales people here. They want to lead the opinion, and they want to block any alternative choice. They chase who they don't like, that's why BaoTou users don't post their suits here.

    I prefer the same product of bespoke at lower cost from Mirador.
     
  19. MrBergschrund

    MrBergschrund Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    You can keep rewording everything and accuse my words. You can keep avoiding my questions. But one thing I will not let you do is misleading everyone while taking advantage for yourself.
    If you are so in depth into Baotou, what are the down sides of using a Baotou? Why would you never tell both sides of the story?

    You are like telling everyone iPhone is expensive and since Foxconn makes iPhone, go directly to Foxconn and get the iPhone with 1/3 of the original price. Sounds all nice huh? But what about the warranties, what about the hassle of finding the right seller, how do you know if all the parts are original? Etc etc...

    You can show and say it works while taking advantage of someone else's post that his suit was made in a tailor and did you also count how many failed suit was made?

    If you defend that much and go that distance in promoting and unwilling admit the down sides, it makes no sense one will believe you are not taking advantages. Either being a translator, either making cheap suit from BaoTao as a reimbursement, either a person owning mirador while renting out little space to BaoTao, and for many other reasons. And the way you twisted others meaning, it is hard to believe when you say you are not a sale, because it doesn't seem you are using the same definition as most do.
     
  20. PekingRoadHK

    PekingRoadHK Senior member

    Messages:
    166
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    You have defined good result can be found from Mirador BaoTou without tailor shop/middle men. You can't overrule yourself with a thousand more unrelated posts!
    4374#:
    4. I only know one that found Ng Sifu and the suit turns out to be good is a friend who gets Ng sifu to come his office for measurement and fitting.

    You avoided my questions, and claim I avoid your questions.
    If I use your questions and claim in the opposite direction, they are actually pointing to tailor shops:
    If you defend that much and go that distance in promoting and unwilling admit the down sides, it makes no sense one will believe you are not taking advantages.
    what are the down sides of using your preferred tailor shops?
    why tailor shops make cheap suits?
    why tailor shops don't provide services?
    why tailor shops refuse to make suit alterations?
    how many bad tailor shops in the market?
    why tailor shops mislead consumers?
    why tailor shops outsource their work to Shenzhen without telling their customers?
    why tailor shops sales don't like consumers raising the BaoTou issue?
    why consumers have to take the words from tailor shop sales?
    why should consumers have to limit our choice to your preferred tailor shops?
    why should consumers have to satisfy tailor shop sales?
    why should consumers pay tailor shops much higher price for the same products from BaoTou?
    when consumers don't see the value of tailor shops, why consumers should not go BaoTou?

    And the way you twisted BaoTou issue, it is hard to believe when you say you are not a tailor shop sale, because it doesn't seem you are using the same definition as most non tailor shop associates do.

    I raise an alternative (BaoTou) only, not a sale of any BaoTou, therefore, whether consumers spend on BaoTou is not my concern.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017 at 3:01 AM

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by